Modification in level 1 Mages

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The Elvish Champion
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Modification in level 1 Mages

Post by The Elvish Champion »

I would like you to make a modification to the level 1 mages. I have lots of problems leveling them up mainly because:

1) They have very little health
2) They need A LOT of XP to level up.

I am just asking you to increase the health of mages of 20 HP, and decrease the XP needed of 15.[/img]
scott
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Post by scott »

In the gritty, physical world of Wesnoth, you will have to learn how to use mages effectively without getting them killed. I understand it may be had to learn to play with them how they need to be, rather than how you want to use them, but it's much more likely to happen rather then the game changing to suit your playing style. You need to move mages in for the killing blow and then protect them with cannon fodder (level 1 units that can absorb enemy attacks). When they get damaged, move mages to the back ranks for healing. In no fantasy genre are mages great at physical combat like heroes and warriors are, but if you leave them exposed after attacking, you are forcing them into it. After you play BFW some more, you'll get the hang of it.
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Fortify
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Post by Fortify »

I would suggest that much time has been spent balancing the attributes of a mage and much consideration has been made for balance both in campaigns and multiplayer.

Having said that you should never find it easy to level up mages because their upgrades are very powerful. Even at level one they are VERY useful in fighting unitst that have a high resistence to regular attacks like Skeletons or are very difficult to hit on terrain of their choice like elves in the forest.

During the day with a leader nearby they pack a huge punch against hard to hit units. You have to use the rest of your units to protect them unit they can make that key hit again next turn. You can't use them as a front line unit or you will need lots of little boxes for them.

In the longer campaign I have leveled up over 10 mages with 6 of them going to L3 or 4. They give flavour because they are so different.
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telly
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Post by telly »

Mages are overpriced basically I reckon. Their stats are alright but 21 gold is too much.
Circon
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Re: Modification in level 1 Mages

Post by Circon »

The Elvish Champion wrote:1) They have very little health
2) They need A LOT of XP to level up.
Uhhh.. these are defining characteristics of mages. They aren't frontline fighters, and they are studying arcane arts. If you have a problem with it, fix it yourself, but don't expect us to put it in the main game.

The file you are looking for is data/units/Mage.cfg. Check out the hitpoints= and experience= lines.

telly wrote:Their stats are alright but 21 gold is too much
Not really, IMO. They get 7-3 (21) magical compared to E Archer's 4-4 (16) normal ranged attack. And they advance to healers / teleporters / major (as in 16-4) damage dealers.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Re: Modification in level 1 Mages

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Circon wrote:E Archer's 4-4
It's 5-4. However the Mage does more damage, has a better damage type, and has magical, which is very powerful.
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telly
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Post by telly »

An elvish archer has more hp, better defence, better melee attack and faster movement so thats not really a very good comparison. Mages do improve exponentially like you say as they gain experience but imo at level 1 are one of the least cost effective units.
Circon
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Re: Modification in level 1 Mages

Post by Circon »

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Circon wrote:E Archer's 4-4
It's 5-4. However the Mage does more damage, has a better damage type, and has magical, which is very powerful.
Oh dear. Last time I played HttT and actually looked at them they were 4-4.

Not cost effective at lvl 1?? That's not the point! The point is that it levels to become incredibly powerful and always kicks butt on undead/elves in forest/mermen in water/saurians.
Doros
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Re: Modification in level 1 Mages

Post by Doros »

Circon wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote: It's 5-4. However the Mage does more damage, has a better damage type, and has magical, which is very powerful.
Oh dear. Last time I played HttT and actually looked at them they were 4-4.

Not cost effective at lvl 1?? That's not the point! The point is that it levels to become incredibly powerful and always kicks butt on undead/elves in forest/mermen in water/saurians.
In campaigns, 21 gold is nothing, but I rarely find myself using mages in multiplayer maps. I can't afford to recruit them in the beginning, because I need scouts and they're expensive, and they're very slow, so it takes a long time to get them into battle. A horseman's speed makes up for its cost - I can recruit a horseman late in the game, and he'll be in battle in a couple turns, even on a large map.
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Re: Modification in level 1 Mages

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Doros wrote:they're very slow
Only as slow as Spearman,Thug,Bowman,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Shaman,Poacher,Thief,Dark Adept,Skeleton,Ghoul,Skeleton Archer,Dwarvish Ulfserker,Orcish Grunt,and Orcish Archer.
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Post by Dave »

The developers are currently discussing making mages a little more powerful and cost-effective, both to make them reasonably useful in multiplayer, and to make the campaigns more forgiving for less experienced players.

David
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turin
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Post by turin »

i think more health is a good idea. decreasing cost to 20 gold might be OK also.

These are, however, mainly MP considerations. They seem balanced in SP. I just don't like seeing an almost completely useless unit on any of the factions, and this qualifies as one in MP.
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MRhe
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Post by MRhe »

Dave wrote:The developers are currently discussing making mages a little more powerful and cost-effective, both to make them reasonably useful in multiplayer, and to make the campaigns more forgiving for less experienced players.
The multiplayer issue is only a slight one, in my opinion. It is rare that one can lvl a mage in MP outside of a very long game, but I use them quite a bit and some of my toughest opponents have used them to good effect. They are invaluable when fighting undead especially.

I don't think the second reason is a good one for altering the mage's stats. One of the hardest things I had to overcome when I first started playing single player mode was keeping mages alive/leveling them. But, once I figured out how to do it well, I was a much better player overall. The difficulty in campaigns should be scenario-specific, not a general bloating of unit strength.

I personally find mages well-balanced at the moment, in large part because of how valuable they are as potential higher-level units. The L1 mage is still very powerful and useful, however. Perhaps some very slight changes would be ok. I just think it would be a shame to tweak the unit for MP purposes at the expense of its integrity as a well-balanced SP unit.
Breeblebox
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Post by Breeblebox »

I have to cast my vote for leaving them as they are. I generally only play multiplayer (except when noone is on devsrv), and have only recently begun to use them effectively. Having experienced this epiphany in all things magi, I now consider them to be one of the toughest unit types in the game.

They are expensive; but not outrageously (Gryphon anyone?), they are weak; but not outrageously (Walking Dead anyone?), they are slow; but not outrageously (Wose anyone?), and they hit like a freight train when the sun comes out.

...besides, how the hell else do you kill wraiths with a single level 1 unit?!
scott
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Post by scott »

a Drake Burner that gets lucky

Aside from all that, I think the mages should stay how they are.
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