[mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

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blanco
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Joined: September 6th, 2012, 6:16 pm

[mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by blanco » September 6th, 2012, 7:03 pm

Ever since I started playing Wesnoth, I thought it would be nice if I could send out my leader to "fight with the troops" without crippling myself. The idea is this: Give players the ability to appoint and/or recruit units that also have the ability to recruit. It would ruin the feel of the game if everyone could recruit, so maybe it's a good idea to set a max of three extra units the player can appoint that also have the ability to recruit troops.

An improvement this idea would bring to the game is that the leader doesn't have to sit at home anymore. Also, when a player is killed, you could send a recruiting-unit to his (now empty) castle and be able to recruit at more than one place at the same time.

On a side-note, I have noticed that you can start games with "empty" players (which I like a lot by the way), which practically means the game starts with an extra castle with no player in it. If this idea were to be inplemented in the game, these (now unused) empty castles could be used strategically by sending an appointed recruiter or your leader there, without losing the ability to recruit at your starting castle.

Let me know what you think, and if anything is unclear, please ask.

tuggyne
Posts: 76
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: [mainline] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by tuggyne » September 6th, 2012, 7:47 pm

I assume you're mostly talking about multiplayer here, because in campaigns I personally almost never leave my leader behind for long, and because the implications for campaign balance and story would be horrific.

One important consideration of allowing new canrecruit units is that they extend your margin of victory substantially: you're not defeated until all canrecruit units are dead. In practice, the advantage of longer survival would probably be so compelling that everyone would try to have maxed leaders all the time, and you would only lose if you could no longer replace them, making leader assassinations a worthless tactic. This is made worse if you can recruit level 2 leaders, because in MP, a single level 2 unit can make quite a difference.

As a side note, be aware that it's already perfectly practical in some cases to move your leader to a new keep, if it happens to be closer to the action; while there are certainly some cases in which multiple canrecruit units would improve responsiveness, I'm not sure it's a compelling reason to make this change.

Finally, it's already possible to do this in WML; I have a custom MP scenario in which you're given an extra leader because of the separated nature of the battlefield.

JaMiT
Developer
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Joined: January 22nd, 2012, 12:38 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by JaMiT » September 6th, 2012, 8:55 pm

Right, the game already supports multiple leaders on a side. All you really need to implement this idea is to design and code up a scenario or era with some events (or menu items) that cause additional leaders to come into existence. (CABD.)

I doubt that this would be a good thing as the default, as existing scenarios would have been designed with "one leader per side" in mind. However, I have not designed any multiplayer scenarios myself, so I don't really know how big a deal it would be. It might be worth you creating an era with this idea implemented so you can see how it affects existing scenarios.

Insinuator
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Location: Portland, OR

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by Insinuator » September 6th, 2012, 11:44 pm

blanco wrote:On a side-note, I have noticed that you can start games with "empty" players (which I like a lot by the way), which practically means the game starts with an extra castle with no player in it. If this idea were to be inplemented in the game, these (now unused) empty castles could be used strategically by sending an appointed recruiter or your leader there, without losing the ability to recruit at your starting castle.
This paragraph makes it seem like you haven't played a whole lot. Many scenarios, both for SP & MP, contain empty keeps and castle tiles at which you can move your leader to and then recruit.

As for the rest, it can already be done and has been. There are a few SP campaigns that have multiple recruiters.

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MetalKing
Posts: 197
Joined: July 8th, 2011, 11:34 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by MetalKing » September 7th, 2012, 1:56 pm

I have to deal with the Matter of multipe Recruiters but still looking for a good/rasonable RuleSet. I want the singel "special Leader" to have aside of can_recruit a Property can_promote and thus promote Units that they can recruit but not promote other Unit to can_recruit. I still looking for Requirements to limit the Number of Promotions. The Limitation is necessary without any Questions from me but what Requirements could get defined an aside constant Limit? I like a growing Approach like if a Player rules another Town or Land etc. than he have reasonable Ned for another Recruiter due to the larger Distance on the Map I'm working with.
"Sir! We are surrounded by our enemies!" - "Excellent ! We can attack in every direction!"
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein
No Source - No Binary - No Trust!
Map Wesnoth Springs - The great War [200x120],Player=9

tuggyne
Posts: 76
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by tuggyne » September 7th, 2012, 6:07 pm

MetalKing wrote:I like a growing Approach like if a Player rules another Town or Land etc. than he have reasonable Ned for another Recruiter due to the larger Distance on the Map I'm working with.
What would that even mean? Are you talking within the context of a particular UMC, or are you just using unusual terms for keeps, villages, or something else?

Insinuator
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Location: Portland, OR

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by Insinuator » September 7th, 2012, 7:27 pm

tuggyne wrote:
MetalKing wrote:I like a growing Approach like if a Player rules another Town or Land etc. than he have reasonable Ned for another Recruiter due to the larger Distance on the Map I'm working with.
What would that even mean? Are you talking within the context of a particular UMC, or are you just using unusual terms for keeps, villages, or something else?
Don't you know Ned? It's the Wesnothian's term for the invisible guardian of random maps. More of a presence than a person, to be precise. He is actually a bit of annoyance, to be honest. Ned is often blamed for lumping huge amounts of contigous terrain together or extending the boundaries of a map into the triple digits, obviously something no sane human map designer would even consider. When he's feeling particularly frisky, Ned will create pointless islands of terrain, cutting off a player from the rest of the map by deep water or impassable mountain.

In this context, MetalKing is clearly showing how a "reasonable Ned" would be an asset to this "new" idea by helpfully creating new keeps spontaneously as you move your troops across his massively disproportionate maps. Because you should NEVER be more than two hexes away from the safety of a keep. If you want this idea to go through, be sure that you present an appeasement offering to Ned by regenerating 100 random maps in the MP lobby. Go now with Ned's blessing, my son.

tuggyne
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Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by tuggyne » September 7th, 2012, 7:42 pm

Insinuator wrote:Don't you know Ned? It's the Wesnothian's term for the invisible guardian of random maps. More of a presence than a person, to be precise. He is actually a bit of annoyance, to be honest. Ned is often blamed for lumping huge amounts of contigous terrain together or extending the boundaries of a map into the triple digits, obviously something no sane human map designer would even consider. When he's feeling particularly frisky, Ned will create pointless islands of terrain, cutting off a player from the rest of the map by deep water or impassable mountain.

In this context, MetalKing is clearly showing how a "reasonable Ned" would be an asset to this "new" idea by helpfully creating new keeps spontaneously as you move your troops across his massively disproportionate maps. Because you should NEVER be more than two hexes away from the safety of a keep. If you want this idea to go through, be sure that you present an appeasement offering to Ned by regenerating 100 random maps in the MP lobby. Go now with Ned's blessing, my son.
Lo, I am enlightened, and I see clearly!

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MetalKing
Posts: 197
Joined: July 8th, 2011, 11:34 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by MetalKing » September 9th, 2012, 12:22 pm

tuggyne wrote:
Insinuator wrote:Don't you know Ned? It's the Wesnothian's term for the invisible guardian of random maps. More of a presence than a person, to be precise. He is actually a bit of annoyance, to be honest. Ned is often blamed for lumping huge amounts of contigous terrain together or extending the boundaries of a map into the triple digits, obviously something no sane human map designer would even consider. When he's feeling particularly frisky, Ned will create pointless islands of terrain, cutting off a player from the rest of the map by deep water or impassable mountain.

In this context, MetalKing is clearly showing how a "reasonable Ned" would be an asset to this "new" idea by helpfully creating new keeps spontaneously as you move your troops across his massively disproportionate maps. Because you should NEVER be more than two hexes away from the safety of a keep. If you want this idea to go through, be sure that you present an appeasement offering to Ned by regenerating 100 random maps in the MP lobby. Go now with Ned's blessing, my son.
Lo, I am enlightened, and I see clearly!
You don't like the Map I'm working at due to it's Size is to large and that moves me close the "Term" Ned. Is that the Point? i smell something in the air... :eng:
"Sir! We are surrounded by our enemies!" - "Excellent ! We can attack in every direction!"
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein
No Source - No Binary - No Trust!
Map Wesnoth Springs - The great War [200x120],Player=9

tuggyne
Posts: 76
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by tuggyne » September 10th, 2012, 8:17 am

MetalKing wrote:
tuggyne wrote:Lo, I am enlightened, and I see clearly!
You don't like the Map I'm working at due to it's Size is to large and that moves me close the "Term" Ned. Is that the Point? i smell something in the air... :eng:
My initial comment was just honest puzzlement at the way you phrased it. But a 200x120 map, yes, I would object to quite strongly :P

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MetalKing
Posts: 197
Joined: July 8th, 2011, 11:34 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by MetalKing » September 10th, 2012, 1:57 pm

The Map I work with a complete Map of the Wesnoth-Map you can see when the Game started in the Main-Menu. Do you advice me I should map that on 40x40 Map? :whistle:
"Sir! We are surrounded by our enemies!" - "Excellent ! We can attack in every direction!"
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein
No Source - No Binary - No Trust!
Map Wesnoth Springs - The great War [200x120],Player=9

tuggyne
Posts: 76
Joined: May 22nd, 2011, 5:52 am

Re: [mainline]/[UMC] Appointing/Recruiting Leaders

Post by tuggyne » September 10th, 2012, 7:57 pm

MetalKing wrote:The Map I work with a complete Map of the Wesnoth-Map you can see when the Game started in the Main-Menu. Do you advice me I should map that on 40x40 Map? :whistle:
No, I'd just advise you not to put that on a single map at all, because it simply doesn't fit.

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