[mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

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Spixi
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Joined: August 23rd, 2010, 7:22 pm

[mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Spixi »

When I have a look at http://units.wesnoth.org/ i see that the unit tree is very untidy. For example there are Wolf, Great Wolf and Dire Wolf. Is there any reason why they aren't evolving in each other? Then there are some dummy units like the Boat and the Gallon. Although they have different movement points, they have the same costs. Even if it is very unlikely that the units could be used combatively (they are only used for graphic reasons), they should have different costs, because the Gallon would be a much better (but still terrible) scout, for example. Last, ist there a reason why the Gryphon is worse than the Gryphon Master but more expensive? Shouldn't the Gryphon be cheaper w/o a rider?

I think about the following changes:

Let the Inferno Drake evolve to the Amargeddon Drake (at 190 XP).
Let the Dwarvish Runemaster evolve to the Dwarvish Arcanister (at 160 XP).
Decrease costs of the Gryphon to 33.
Let the Lich evolve to the Ancient Lich (at 240 XP).
Let the Arch Mage furthermore evolve to the Elder Mage (fork); then decrease the level of the Elder Mage to 4, increase its costs to 68 and lower its XP from 250 to 200.
Let the Shock Trooper furthermore evolve to the Royal Warrior (fork); then decrease its movepoints to 5 and increase the HP of the Iron Mauler to 68.
Decrease costs of the Elvish Lady to 1 (Since it's the worst lvl 3 unit; however there may be reasons in future to set this costs, maybe if there is a better rating/statistic system later).
Decrease costs of the Boat to 1.
Decrease costs of the (plain) Galleon to 4.
Let the Tentacle of the Deep evolve to the Cuttle Fish (at 52 XP).
Let the Water Serpent evolve to the Sea Serpent (at 114 XP).
Let the Revenant furthermore evolve to the Death Knight (fork); then increase the HP of the Draug to 72 and the XP of the Revenant to 88
Let the Wolf evolve to the Great Wolf (at 42 XP) and then evolve to the Direwolf (at 77 XP).

Then we will have a tidier, understandable evolution tree.

To rebalance the Knalgan Alliance increase the melee attack of the Dwarvish Ulfserker and Dwarvish Berserker to 5 - 4 / 8 - 4 and their costs to 20 / 35
To rebalance the Northerners increase the HP of the Orcish Grunt / Orcish Warrior /Orcish Warlord to 40 / 61 / 84 and their costs to 13 / 28 / 51.
To rebalance the Rebels increase the HP of the Wose / Elder Wose / Ancient Wose to 56 / 69 / 86 and decrease their pierce defense to 50%.

What do you think?

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Alarantalara
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Re: Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Alarantalara »

Most of these were suggested not too long ago. You can find the discussion here:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=35823

Also, this belongs in the ideas forum.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by beetlenaut »

And in the case of your ideas to rebalance those factions, why? The developers have spent years balancing them. If you claim they are unbalanced, you will have to show replays where the Knalgans (for example) lose more of the time than any other faction because the Ulfserker is underpowered. That is how the developers make balancing decisions.
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Spixi
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Re: Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Spixi »

The rebalancing is because of the higher advancement levels of the Loyalists and the Undead after the reorganization... Otherwise some Ancient Liches and Elder Mage will be unbeatable ...

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Colouredbox
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Re: Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Colouredbox »

Spixi wrote:The rebalancing is because of the higher advancement levels of the Loyalists and the Undead after the reorganization... Otherwise some Ancient Liches and Elder Mage will be unbeatable ...
And how will a player get an ancient lich in a normal multiplayer game?
Waiting for cheesedwarfs to be added to ageless.

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Flameslash
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Re: Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Flameslash »

He would need to level up a (frail) unit 4 times, a unit that has no melee at level 1.

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PeterPorty
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Re: Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by PeterPorty »

A unit which at level one gets 100% killed by the ulf.... :whistle:
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Jabie
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Jabie »

In the scenarios - not necessarily in the factions - I'd like to see the different kinds of Goblins from Swamplings.

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Telchin
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Telchin »

A unit which at level one gets 100% killed by the ulf....
Not exactly true. The berserk is capped by 30 iterations of combat, so if the DA is VERY lucky, he can survive fight with ulf. I haven't seen it on person, but the there is still a possibiloty, just an insignificant one.

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Flameslash
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Flameslash »

I guess that's to stop cases where you attack a UMC unit with 100% defence with a berserk attack that they can't counter.

Caphriel
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by Caphriel »

Don't quote me on this, because I can't source it nor remember where I heard it, but I think the limit on berserk was to enable the predicted results calculator to function.

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MetalKing
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by MetalKing »

Argument of Balance of Units/Fractions is at Present the Death-Criterion for Wesnoth: It limits Wesnoth's Envelopments in many Ways. That's a simple deductive Consequence from invariably Properties of StatusQuo. Even if there (this) is a balanced State it doesn't mean there are no other Configurations with Balances and also doesn't mean that other totally different Configuratiosn with Balance exist. Balance well and fine, but I don't understand how few Dwarves even with an Axe can kill a Wose. Orcs resp. their Flame-Arrows are well understandable. Woses should get Fire from and as long as burning have damaged Turn by Turn similar like Humans from Poisons.

There is the Idea that all Factions/Units can (NOT) get balanced simply by adjusting it Costs.

There are two unneccesary Limitations:

1) Level-N-Units have to cost N Gold per Turn.
2) Each single Village/Town/Building have to give the same Taxes.

P1.: E.g. try this: multiply all Costs/Income with x10 and then you get more Fineness to balance Units/Factions related to Costs. At Present you can at best decide to declare a Unit to be Level-i instead Level-j to change its MaintenanceCosts.

Give each Town two Properties: [1] Population and [2] Richness. [1] and [2] are Factors for the Taxes while Population could influence Costs for Recruitment whuke reverse Recruitment can influence Costs for Recruitment. If there are many People Recruitment is cheap.


I miss that there is no Folder of Animals-for Units like Wolf, Bat and Rat etc. I don't consider these as "Monsters" but as Animals.

I miss Images for all 6 Directions of the Ships. The Reasons for Ships are aside of Capacity also SPEED (Range). I would like to see Animations of Ships (Sail,Flag,BowWave). There is an Image for a Pirate-Gallon. I wonder why it doesn't use TeamColor Black. I would like to see that Unit as Option if there is a Harbort-Type connected to the Keep. My Intention is not to use its superior FirePower bit its Capability to transport multiple (also slow) Units with same fast Speed. It enable surprising Ambushes via Harborts&Rivers. I don't understand the short Range of most Ships compared with Mounts. A Ship can travel Night and Day while a Horse have to rest regulary.

I don't understand how any Sword- or Bow-armed or even mounted Rider can do any Damage to that Unit excepted the Arrows of the Orcs which cause Fire(Damage). I wonder about that Orcs are known inter alia for Primitivity but however they did "invent" the terrible "Flame-Arrow-Technology" efficient against Woses and many Undead but surprisingly neither the smart Elves nor the inventive Humans are able copy this Technology. You could say there are other Units that can attack these but it's at all Ways really strange as oldest Humans at our Planet dealed with Fire even 200.000 Years ago but Archers from Elves and Humans are not able to fire Flame-Arrows.

As most Fractions have Archers all these Fractions should have with FlameArrows an effective Weapon against Ships. It's annoying if any Opponent can always remove its Ship due to Maneuverability/Speed and Resistance.

I would like to see a Menu for MP-Games to control "Length" of Day. This Way: There are 2 Variables turn t and day d and there is are two Sliders to adjust their Values from e.g. 0..24 and an Option to start at which Time 0..24. With Variables t and d it's possible to define that a Day takes e.g. 4 Turns. Now assert there are 3 Players. Instead changing ToD each Turn it could get changed after each Player making GameTime smoother.
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fabi
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by fabi »

MetalKing wrote:Balance well and fine, but I don't understand how few Dwarves even with an Axe can kill a Wose. Orcs resp. their Flame-Arrows are well understandable. Woses should get Fire from and as long as burning have damaged Turn by Turn similar like Humans from Poisons.
Hmmm, ever tried to set fire on a green, living tree?
I do not want to get you into dangerous experiments but you can imagine that the water inside needs to vaporize first.
I do not know about the exact physiology of our Woses (it is not defined in that detail, is it?) however, if you compare them to trees I bet you can kill them faster with an axe which isn't only a weapon but a tool, invented for chopping trees.

The fire vulnerability of the Woses always makes me think about them as either undead trees or some sort of wooden golem.
Both beings that live out of certain magic with dead and dry wood attached to them.

Woses are regenerating units, if you poison one of those they spend a round of their regeneration to get rid of it.
How would you handle them being on fire?
Does it prevent them from regenerating while burning? Or is there even some extra damage?

If it only keeps them from regenerating you have that burning tree that is on fire for a week or two having constantly only a few HP (from the flame arrow hit) below maximum. That is strange and would not please Mister Spock.

If they do not regenerate but get extra damage from being on fire you have the ultimate weapon against them.
Damage against negative resistance, constantly extra damage like poison and preventing the regeneration.
In numbers: 8hp not regenerated, maybe 8hp(?) from the fire per round and the hit itself, let's say it goes with 8 hp as well.
They take 24 damage the first round if only hit once plus 16 damage per round without any more enemy contact.
I can't see how that disadvantage could be balanced against.

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The_Other
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Re: [mainline] Unit Tree Reorganization

Post by The_Other »

MetalKing strikes again with a thousand ideas at once...in a thread that is only tenuously related to any of them... :roll:

Some of them are good ones, too, though not necessarily good for this game.

Flame damage to Wose (Woses? Wosi?) could perhaps be implemented as a reduction of their maximum HP each turn, and suspension of regeneration. I think this might make a sensible alternative to letting them be poisoned (How many natural or low-tech poisons are effective against both humans and plants? I admit, I've always found it a bit strange that, for instance, an Orcish Assassin carries daggers dipped in weedkiller!)
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