Give these Units a Chance

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Lord-Knightmare
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Give these Units a Chance

Post by Lord-Knightmare » August 26th, 2010, 9:33 am

I don't know if this was discussed earlier, but I think this unit-line should get an enhancement in stats:

Sergeant--->Lieutenant--->General--->Grand Marshal
*These should get an increase in HP.

My reasons:

1. I was playing a multiplayer game in Age of Heroes era and the General as my leader. It was a 4v4 (Loyalist vs Northerners).
At some point, I used my leader to attack an Orcish Warrior using the range attack (it was night time, so it didn't deal much damage). On the warrior's turn, he deal 36 damage (A full 12-3) and dropped my HP to 14. That was when I realized that the General was just too weak for an lvl 3 unit. The same thing goes for the Sergeant and Lieutenant (in their respective levels).

2.The Grand Marshal is perhaps the weakest lvl 4 unit in Wesnothian history. The Royal Guard has more Hp that this guy as well as melee damage.

My Suggested Stats:

Sergeant:
HP-34
Melee 6-3

Lieutenant
HP-45
Melee 7-4

General
HP-58
Melee 9-4

Grand Marshal
HP-70
Melee 11-4

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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by thespaceinvader » August 26th, 2010, 10:16 am

LEADERSHIP. These units are not intended to be front-line fighters. They are support units which can also fight. The balance is good already, if you're using your leader in a tactically iffy way, that's your lookout. Don't attack orcish warriors with him at night, for instance. The risk isn't worth the reward.
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by HomerJ » August 26th, 2010, 10:41 am

IIRC the Sergeant line used to have more HP around 1.2 or so. I got nerfed afterwards probably because it was unbalanced.


Edit: Hm, seem to be my memory failing me, I couldn't find it in the changelogs...


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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by norbert » August 26th, 2010, 11:26 am

HomerJ wrote:IIRC the Sergeant line used to have more HP [...] Edit: Hm, seem to be my memory failing me, I couldn't find it in the changelogs...
Not sure if it's what you mean, but the full changelog mentions "new units [...] Sergeant" added to version 0.7.9, and both the full and the players' changelog contain "Decreased the HP of the Sergeant from 36 to 32." for version 1.5.7.

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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by HomerJ » August 26th, 2010, 12:04 pm

norbert wrote: "Decreased the HP of the Sergeant from 36 to 32." for version 1.5.7.
:shock: 1.5.7? I didn't look this far... :oops:

Ok but at least no damage to brain.exe ...
Full changelog wrote: Decreased the cost of the Sergeant from 20 to 19.
* Decreased the HP of the Sergeant from 36 to 32.
* Decreased the HP of the Lieutenant from 48 to 40.
* Decreased the melee attack of the Lieutenant from 9-3 to 8-3.
* Decreased the HP of the General from 58 to 50.
* Decreased the HP of the Grand Marshal from 68 to 60.
This is what I was talking about, thanks norbert.


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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by Anonymissimus » August 26th, 2010, 3:31 pm

I have the feeling that the reward for taking such a lot of experience to level is too few too. The unit has the sole purpose of leadership and isn't useful for anything else. Compare with the elvish marshal, he's at level 3 as strong as the Grand Marshal but takes much less xp to level. What mustn't be forgotten is that General and Grand Marshal have some resistances, though, this comes down to having some more hitpoints against that damage types.
But compare with Delfador in DM who has leadership level 4 + 16-4 Grand Mage ranged attack.
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by Velensk » August 26th, 2010, 3:40 pm

Delfador in DM was defiantly never intended to be balanced by normal standards.

Lieutenants were nerfed because they were simply too good a leader unit for multiplayer. I think the rest were nerfed to be consistent. I do not think this is a problem because the line is still a mobile leader line that can get up to level 4. Elvish marshals may be almost as good a combatant as grand marshals however, they are slower and do not get level 4 leadership and that makes a huge difference.
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by A Guy » August 26th, 2010, 5:09 pm

Could we at least un-nerf Tallin in Northern Rebirth?
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by thespaceinvader » August 26th, 2010, 5:50 pm

I've never had any trouble keeping him alive...
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by artisticdude » August 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm

thespaceinvader wrote:I've never had any trouble keeping him alive...
For the record, neither have I (although I tend to keep my leader in any game of Wesnoth on a keep 90% of the time, so...). :whistle:
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by krotop » August 26th, 2010, 9:03 pm

Joining the choir.

The sergeant line combat skills and survivability are purposedly low, to make up for its awesome combination of good movement and leadership ability.
This line used to be more potent in the fighting field, but at some point, in the competitive multiplayer microcosm, it became obvious that the Lieutenant was a good step above the other leaders you could get for the loyalists faction (and I would personnally dare to say it remains the most useful leader you could pick for that faction, despite the nerf), and that it needed a nerf.

I don't remember exactly how the decision was taken, but as far as I know another option was being considered : to decrease the unit's mobility. For flavour purposes, it was decided to keep the 6mp, making the high mobility on flat the special feat of the lieutenant over the other leader-like units : the elvish captain & the drake flare.
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by Anonymissimus » August 26th, 2010, 9:32 pm

From the singleplayer point of view the sergeant line is a bit too weak. You know that when playing Eastern Invasion, Mal Ravanal's capital especially. My subjective opinion however.
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by Crushmaster » August 26th, 2010, 10:17 pm

I agree that they do seem rather weak as far as hitpoints are concerned. Which is probably why I like using the swordsman unit.
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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by shadowm » August 27th, 2010, 1:35 am

A Guy wrote:Could we at least un-nerf Tallin in Northern Rebirth?
No. The whole point of that campaign is that you must be masochist to play it.

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Re: Give these Units a Chance

Post by A Guy » August 27th, 2010, 2:15 am

42... goblin knights... 42... *shudders*
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