Giving Knalgan's thugs back.

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Molean
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Joined: July 25th, 2009, 7:11 pm

Giving Knalgan's thugs back.

Post by Molean » May 4th, 2010, 12:23 am

I have been told that Knalgans lost thugs to balance them with undead. I assert that undead have a advantage against knalgans even with thugs. That even with thugs as a option, knalgan players still have alot of reason to make other unit types, but thugs provide a balance against undead that is needed.

Knalgan alliance lacking healers, fire/arcane and many are very slow. All of which help undead.

Ghosts are excellent to use against any Knalgan, even dwarvish thunderer do half health damage against a ghost at the same level, also getting cold damage retaliation. But dwarvish thunderers are one of those slow units. Which makes it hard for them to catch ghosts, makes it easy for ghosts to retreat and heal from them, and if poisoned some distance from a city, makes ghouls a effective unit to use on them since if poisoned, by the time they get back to a city, they can be at 1hp, which knocks them out of the fight for awhile, assuming you can even protect them the whole time.

If you make footpads to try to avoid poisoning, speed to get back to town if poisoned, and for their blunt damage against skeletons, dark adepts can be easily and effectively used against them. Footpads also don't do alot of damage, even against skeletons.

If thugs needed to be balanced against undead a bit (which I doubt is the case) then you could make them 1 speed slower, which would increase poisons effectiveness against them, or slightly more in cost. But I don't see the need for that.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
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Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Giving Knalgan's thugs back.

Post by Velensk » May 4th, 2010, 12:47 am

This does not seem like a good idea.

Knalgans do not need thugs to give undead a very hard time and putting thugs back in while decreasing their movement would not only throw off the balance in campaigns but would make them largely useless against all enemies.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

Caphriel
Posts: 994
Joined: April 21st, 2008, 4:10 pm

Re: Giving Knalgan's thugs back.

Post by Caphriel » May 4th, 2010, 12:54 am

Molean wrote:I have been told that Knalgans lost thugs to balance them with undead. I assert that undead have a advantage against knalgans even with thugs.
Game balance is experimentally determined. Please provide evidence of the Undead having an advantage against the Knalgans. The thug was removed because playtesting determined it was overpowered against the Undead.

Try thieves against ghosts, by the way; I find they're better than thunderers.

monochromatic
Posts: 1549
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 1:45 am

Re: Giving Knalgan's thugs back.

Post by monochromatic » May 4th, 2010, 1:01 am

IMO you're forgetting the most important unit in the this matchup: Ulfserkers!!

Don't underestimate them. There was a thread earlier about footpad and ulf spam vs. undead, and it worked very nicely. Ulfs can take out a DA a turn, and then you can screen them with footpads. And they don't have the customary 4mp of the dwarves, they have 5! Remember, undead is a notoriously slow faction; only the ghost and the bat have significant mp. Have trouble with ghosts? Send a couple footpads and/or poachers, shoot at it, and if it's not dead yet, use an ulf to hammer it away. Remember, ulfs are cheaper than ghosts! Have trouble with ghouls? Shoot rock at it with footpads and it will go down very quickly. Plus with the footpad's 70% defense, it's not that easy to get it poisoned, and when it is, it can just run away to heal. An army of DAs coming up your way to eradicate your footpads? Then send your ulfs and decimate them. Get fighters to support, they will hold they line very well.

Adding the thug to this mess will give the knalgan player easy nerfing to DAs, bats, WCs, and both types of skellies. They do very decent damage to ghosts and resist their attack, reducing the effectiveness of their drain. The only that can stop them is ghouls; then just send footpads that way.

All of that for JUST 13 gold??

For me, that's overpowered. Really. Undead are really weak already; they have no traits, are slow, and are very vulnerable to the right set of units. No need to raise the power of the knalgans.

EDIT: You may want to look at this.

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Ken_Oh
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Re: Giving Knalgan's thugs back.

Post by Ken_Oh » May 4th, 2010, 1:18 am

Molean: This is not how to suggest changes to multiplayer.

#1. There is no need for a second thread on the same topic (after getting little support in that thread). The Multiplayer forum is actually where this is usually talked about, but Users is a catch-all, so I'll let it stay.

#2. Your justification is that you played 2 games as Knalgan recently and had a little trouble against Undead. As others in the other thread are pointing out, the way to prove that a faction has trouble is to be the supposedly overpowered faction and show how others have trouble beating you.

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