Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

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Yoyobuae
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by Yoyobuae »

@ALX23: How long have you been playing? Have you "mastered" the faction/factions you prefer (and choose)?

I was once where you stand. But then I realized that facing a random faction was not the deciding factor when I lost. Instead I recognized it was my fault when I lost.

The only real problem comes with choosing a faction on some specific maps (ie. drakes on Isar). In those cases there is a noticeable disadvantage, but even then its possible to overcome it.

But its probably much easier to just adapt. Avoid maps that have such balance problems, or even use the 1v1 random map pack (the one downloadable from add-on server).

Also adapt your first recruits. I only play drakes, but I never recruit burners against a random opponent. Instead I get fighters/augurs/clashers/skirmishers. And when I find out the opponent's faction, I recruit any other units I need (I try to save my gold until then).

You need to consider all of the 6 match-ups and see which units are useful against most of them. Then try to balance out any weakness by mixing units a bit. One semi-useless unit isn't that bad. And if you survive long enough that early advantage just grows smaller.

Zakalwe
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by Zakalwe »

Hi ALX23,

Firstly I'd like to point out to you that the change that you are suggesting would only be used by people who don't use random in the first place. There are two players in every game and while you may consider your faction choice to be 'your' decision, you must also recall that picking random is their decision and that the game is designed to reward superior play. I imagine that the only reason why a player would wish to play with the change you propose is if they have a similar mindset as yourself and wish to pick their own race - otherwise why would a random player voluntarily accept a handicap by choosing to play you?
I consider myself cheated when others know my race while I do not know theirs.
In response to this I would like to ask you a question: Do you feel that THEY are cheated by not knowing their race? Because a random-picker does not know which race they received until they enter the map.

After they have entered the map then their faction + leader is only hidden if you have fog of war on. Random hiding your choices is just that: part of Fog of War. (Indeed if that is your problem you could simply play with Fog of war off.)

Sun Tzu said "All warfare is based on deception." Random enriches the game by offering a choice to deny information to the opponent at the cost of uncertainty in their own force.

Lets look at the pros and cons of the current system:
Random
Pros:
*Opponent cannot recruit specifically against you.
Cons:
*You need to be prepared for any resulting combination of faction and leader
*You may potentially receive an 'inferior' leader type.
Picked Race
Pros:
*You only need to prepare for the exact faction and leader combination that you choose
*You can pick a 'superior' leader type (Drake Flare, Elvish Ranger, White Mage, suits the map etc.)
Cons:
*Your opponent can recruit specifically against you.

And the pros and cons of your proposed system:
Random
Pros:
*Opponent cannot recruit specifically against you.
Cons:
*You need to be prepared for any resulting combination of faction and leader
*You may potentially receive an 'inferior' leader type.
Picked Race
Pros:
*Opponent cannot recruit specifically against you.
*You only need to prepare for the exact faction and leader combination that you choose
*You can pick a 'superior' leader type (Drake Flare, Elvish Ranger, White Mage, suits the map etc.)
Cons:
*None

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Gambit
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by Gambit »

OP is gone 3 days and 7 very large responses. We're repeating ourselves. We're repeating ourselves. Let's let this RIP until he comes back.

Also the solution to this whole entire "problem" CABD in WML. Just make it so people can change their faction on Turn 1.

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Zachron
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by Zachron »

This isn't just CABD, it is HABD as far as I know. Anyone remember "Pick your own recruit's" Era. There is still the possibility to pick or be random, but all your enemy knows is your leader type.
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solsword
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by solsword »

"CABD in WML" is a phrase that gets thrown around a lot, but often the WML is quite complicated (as it is in this case) and so it's no real excuse for not implementing a feature (if that feature is good). I don't think that this idea should become the default, but mining from the other thread, this CABD without WML: start an MP game with "no random" in the title, and kick anyone who picks "random race". Then, if you want to do a random race in that game, flip a coin or roll a die to decide your race, and pick that race. That way you get your "revealed random" choice of race, as a bonus, you can pick your leader, and no-one can pick "hidden random" (because you'd kick them). I'm pretty sure that's the exact behavior that the OP desired, it takes no code to implement, and is a choice freely available to all players. Now can we add this to the FPI list with an explanation of this scheme?
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Noy
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by Noy »

As said above, not going to happen.

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Sapient
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Re: Multiplayer: Balancing "random race" vs specified one

Post by Sapient »

Yes, this topic is dead. Thanks Zakalwe for a very thoughtful analysis from a depth-of-gameplay perspective, however.
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