Walking corpses changes

[Molean]

I've been playing dark forecast over and over with one side as undead and the other elf.(under version 1.4.7, can't use latter) It is a challenging map. I got to see alot of the walking corpse variations and have a issue with a few of them.

All references of unit types are to walking corpse version of those units types unless stated otherwise:

Drakes and gryphons share the same graphics, even though they have very different stats. It seems such different units would look a little different as undead and deserve different graphics.

All riding walking corpses have the same stats and graphics. But they should at least have different stats. Elf riders and orc riders should have different stats then human riders.

Elf riders could lose the human rider resistance to blade and impact but gain a little extra defense and 1 move in forest, keeping their pierce weakness.

Orc riders could have the same resistance and dodge as a standard walking corpse but have plus 1 move. Perhaps some slight nerf in some area compared to a standard WC.

Otherwise we could do something identical with both orc and elven riders, since none of the other elf units have special WC, but as long as its different from human armored rider stats.

Human riders could remain the same resistance wise, but have seriously reduced defenses on non-open plan spaces. Perhaps 30 in forests and hills (I think they already have this) 20 in forts, mountains caves, and 10 in open waters and swamps. And so on for other terrain. The human rider resistance bonuses coupled with the extra movement is very nice and worth it.

This could go for drakes too, which have nice resistance bonuses and only additional weakness is to cold, but few units have cold, and most that do, also have arcane anyway which they are even more vulnerable to. So I think they could use across the board nerfs in defense and movement on any space that isn't a hill, mountain, or sand. Drakes could also get a bit of pierce weakness.

Dwarfs are very nice too, having that across the board except arcane resistance. Someone said dwarf WC's don't have 70 defense on mountains, I know this to be wrong. Dwarves do have 70 def on mountains(unless this was changed in some latest version, but I don't see it in the change log) I think it should be 60 on mountains, and 50 on hills.

Perhaps some heavily armored units (like heavy infantry) could have their own special WC stats? I mean if the human riders keep their armor, wouldn't other units too?

[StandYourGround]

Great ideas. Now make the baseframes and animations (Walking Corpse and Soulless) for the following and code them:

Orc
Elf (possibly a zombie faerie variant as well)
Wolf (with and without rider)
Naga
Giant Scorpion
Yeti
Gryphon (with and without rider)
Ogre
Fire Dragon
Sea Serpent
Tentacle of the deep
Cave Spider
Cuttlefish
Mudcrawler

Awaiting the patch!


To be more serious, of course it would be wonderful if all the living creatures in Wesnoth had their own unique zombie variants, it's just a lot of work. Pointing out what needs fixing is never as helpful (or well received) as actually doing something to fix it.

[thespaceinvader]

We're gradually adding more WC variations when people get round to making them, but we really don't see it as a huge priority. The only ones i'd really like to see are Gryphon Rider and Wolf Rider myself, since that (along with the goblin ones being worked on at the moment) woudl round out the mainline multiplayer WC set. Elves and Orcs will not get separate WCs - they are simply too similar to bother.

[Cloud]

Just to elaborate on what TSI has put.

We currently have a lot of nice baseframes (see the art developement forum to see what an awesome job Jet is doing), the Mermen/maids are a prime example of this, all of which need - attack animations for every attack (at least 4/5 frames), defense frames [and preferably for every attack] (min 2).

After that we've got up to 3 directional attacks and defenses to create (generally 2 and a half when it's possible). Then idle animations (a fair few frames go into that, but say at least 4) and finally a death (upwards of 6 I believe).

So there's at least 20 animation frames for each base frame.

To make new WC variations right at the moment, with so many units already in need of these animations would be a waste of time.

Yes it would be nice to have them, but it isn't necessary.

[Yoyobuae]

I find drake corpses rather annoying. Their resistances are just too good for the Undead player, as they cover all the weaknesses other undead units have. Can't burn them, can't cut them.

Is this the method used to try to balance Drake vs Undead match up? That would be only reasonable explanation.

[SolaceAvatar]

From a purely aesthetic perspective, I find the clearly-flying bat "walking" corpse to be a bit weird.

[thespaceinvader]

There's an easy solution to that problem: don't let the undead player kill your drakes with his corpses...

[Neoskel]

I think that a bigger problem is that flying drakes that get zombied switch to the drakefoot movetype and can thus end up on terrains they can't normally path onto like chasms and lava.

Consider if a flying drake is on a chasm tile, with chasm on all sides, and it is killed by a gryphon/bat zombie. You'll now have a drake zombie stuck floating over the middle of a chasm.

The solution for this requires either two types of drake zombies (flying and non-flying) or for the one version of the drake zombie to use the drakefly movetype. Which would mean that clashers would get turned into flying zombies. This is fine since the fluff now has them unable to fly because of the armor instead of having underdeveloped wings, zombie drakes shed all armor and can thus fly.

As of now, the drake zombies also don't have the weaknesses they should, since they use the movetype and thus resistances for the armored drakes.

[thespaceinvader]

I'd prefer for it to be non-flying drake zombies, and if you plagued a drake over non-walk terrain, it would just die, like it would on a village. Making all zombie drakes fly results in major art upgrade requirements.

[Neoskel]

Well, the drake soulless needs new graphics anyways, and the zombie cfg can certainly handle different animations. As long as someone is willing to do the art, there should be no problem getting the drake zombies to move/animate like the living drakes.

I'm putting it on my list.

[Zarel]

I'd prefer for it to be non-flying drake zombies, and if you plagued a drake over non-walk terrain, it would just die, like it would on a village. Making all zombie drakes fly results in major art upgrade requirements.

Better idea: It would die, turn into a zombie, and die again!

[Yoyobuae]

There's an easy solution to that problem: don't let the undead player kill your drakes with his corpses...

Heh, I should've anticipated your kind of response and shouldn't posted that previous post. My mistake.

[Molean]

Do all varietions need their own graphics? I know there at least one that doesn't already. I mean unique graphics would be nice, but without the graphics, wouldn't it still be worth it?

As I said in my original post, I could see wolf rider lines and elvish riders combined into one unit too, especially if its a issue of animation. As long as they are separate from the armored human riders.

You'll now have a drake zombie stuck floating over the middle of a chasm.

Not a issue, with my experience on a campaign map where a wall barrier suddenly appears, you can still move off of it, at least if it's no more then 2 tiles wide. This would almost never come up, and if it was a issue, you could simply make no WC able to be over chasms.

There's an easy solution to that problem: don't let the undead player kill your drakes with his corpses...

LOL?! Oh it's just that easy eh? Undead already do nice against drakes as it is, even without WC consideration. Ghosts and dark adepts and their lines (plus maybe a few gouls) just rock them. And they lack arcane for WC.

I definitely think their WC should not get benefits from both the armored side and the semi flying side(at least movement wise) of drakes rolled into one. To pick one, make two, or combine their weaknesses, rather then their strengths)

[Aethaeryn]

LOL?! Oh it's just that easy eh? Undead already do nice against drakes as it is, even without WC consideration. Ghosts and dark adepts and their lines (plus maybe a few gouls) just rock them. And they lack arcane for WC.

What a coincidence. Just the other day, I replied in another thread to a post about Undead having a hard time against Drakes. Could it be that the match-up is high in casualties for both sides because they're natural opposites?

[Molean]

Well the thread wasn't about that, and the poster forgot about the dark adept line, without those its a much different story.

Anyway, assuming their evenly matched in every other way, then there is no reason for the drake WC to be super powered.

Same thing with dwarves since their faction means a ghost spam with a few dark adepts and some skeleton fighters for the shotgun guys can be very effective,(plus gouls for the defense guys) since that faction lacks both fire and arcane. So no reason for dwarven WC's to be so great. 70 defense with 20's in resistance against all the physical types that, that faction uses (and can only use) is just way too good for a WC.