stats and win conditions for multiplayer

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Kenpachi
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stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Kenpachi » August 13th, 2009, 5:15 am

Multiple win conditions

Currently we only have one: (unless the map has custom victory conditions)

Normal - Kill all enemy leaders. But you get to use your units even if you have lost your leader, until all leaders but one are dead.

New

Assassinate - Kill all enemy leaders. But all you units die when your leader does.
Supremacy - Kill all units. You can't win by just killing the leaders.
Domination - Control all villages. You just have to own all the villages.


End game screens:

Currently we have none

I would like to see some stats here, with graphs

Stats like:
Total damage dealt & received
Units recruited, killed & lost
Gold earned
Gold spent on recruitment & upkeep
XP gained
Most recruited unit
Most killed unit
Highest level unit & level

Graphs like:
Number of units / time
Upkeep / time
Income / time
Villages held / time
Score / time

These could be optional for viewing, with the ability to see all players stats as compared to your own.

I mentioned a "score / time"
This would be just

Code: Select all

 <gold spent>+<xp earned> 
updated each turn set ie. after the last player ends their turn. where gold spent includes upkeep & recruitment.

And yes, I know a score system is a fpi

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StDrake
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by StDrake » August 13th, 2009, 1:48 pm

Kenpachi wrote:Multiple win conditions

Currently we only have one: (unless the map has custom victory conditions)

Normal - Kill all enemy leaders. But you get to use your units even if you have lost your leader, until all leaders but one are dead.

New

Assassinate - Kill all enemy leaders. But all you units die when your leader does.
Supremacy - Kill all units. You can't win by just killing the leaders.
Domination - Control all villages. You just have to own all the villages.
You've been playing one kind of maps and seriously underestimate the possibilities of this game. All your ideas can be made with relatively simple wml scripts in the scenario description file. You can turn off winning on leader death, you can make all units die if their leader does, you can set custom win conditions..probably even the thing with village capturing though im too much of a newbie in wml to think how could that be done. Just that not many people decide to make such maps, how about you try?
End game screens:
[..]
I would like to see some stats here, with graphs

Stats like:
Total damage dealt & received
Units recruited, killed & lost
after a game ends you can still go into the game menu and see the statistics. Yes! They are there! All the things mentionned above and a few more! you can see how many of each type of units you recruited, how many times a unit levelled and to what kind etc etc

well ok so just missing total gold and xp
Graphs like:
Number of units / time
Upkeep / time
Income / time
Villages held / time
Score / time
that's better, yes those would be fun indeed..though the last 'score' is mighty cheesy..and i'd hate to see the size of my savegames directory with all this added xD

big block of text and only 15 words of legit ideas..please learn what you're dealing with before trying to tweak it, it's like you were proposing to add space for a spare wheel to a modern car
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Aethaeryn
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Aethaeryn » August 13th, 2009, 2:12 pm

StDrake wrote:You've been playing one kind of maps and seriously underestimate the possibilities of this game. All your ideas can be made with relatively simple wml scripts in the scenario description file. You can turn off winning on leader death, you can make all units die if their leader does, you can set custom win conditions..probably even the thing with village capturing though im too much of a newbie in wml to think how could that be done. Just that not many people decide to make such maps, how about you try?
I think he's suggesting that victory conditions be an option on mainline maps, not that there should be more maps with different victory conditions.

The other suggestion, stats, is pointless as there are stats in games and the developers can choose which stats they want since they are the ones actually doing the work to put the stats in the game.
StDrake wrote:big block of text and only 15 words of legit ideas..please learn what you're dealing with before trying to tweak it, it's like you were proposing to add space for a spare wheel to a modern car
He says he knows a score system is FPI (rejected right there, then, since he wasn't being very persuasive, just listing an idea he know has been rejected). He suggests there be a statistics screen when there is one. By process of elimination there is only one "legit idea" left.
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Kenpachi
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Kenpachi » August 13th, 2009, 2:31 pm

StDrake wrote: You've been playing one kind of maps and seriously underestimate the possibilities of this game. All your ideas can be made with relatively simple wml scripts in the scenario description file. You can turn off winning on leader death, you can make all units die if their leader does, you can set custom win conditions..probably even the thing with village capturing though im too much of a newbie in wml to think how could that be done. Just that not many people decide to make such maps, how about you try?
That's the entire request. For map independent win conditions
I qualify my statement about possible win conditions. (unless the map has custom victory conditions)
The entire point of this request is, I don't want to have 3 versions of each map with the different win conditions. I just want one map that I can chose the win condition for.

after a game ends you can still go into the game menu and see the statistics. Yes! They are there! All the things mentionned above and a few more! you can see how many of each type of units you recruited, how many times a unit levelled and to what kind etc etc

well ok so just missing total gold and xp
Do they show how every one went, or just yourself?
I've not seen the feature but I'll look again
It would still be nice to have it shown to you, before you get dumped back to the lobby.
Also, would be nice for the campaigns.

big block of text and only 15 words of legit ideas..please learn what you're dealing with before trying to tweak it, it's like you were proposing to add space for a spare wheel to a modern car
The ideas are mostly not the info or options you have available, but rather, how they are presented to you.

Kenpachi
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Kenpachi » August 13th, 2009, 2:33 pm

Aethaeryn wrote: He says he knows a score system is FPI
I was assuming with the score system being a FPI

And yes, I did do a search.
Last edited by Kenpachi on August 13th, 2009, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

silene
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by silene » August 13th, 2009, 2:54 pm

Kenpachi wrote:I don't want to have 3 versions of each map with the different win conditions. I just want one map that I can chose the win condition for.
From a technical point of view, you don't need three versions of the map. You could just have one map, and have a player decides during the first turn what the win conditions for the game would be. In fact, it doesn't even have to be the decision of a single player; one could easily code a vote system in WML.

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StDrake
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by StDrake » August 13th, 2009, 3:32 pm

Kenpachi wrote: Do they show how every one went, or just yourself?
I've not seen the feature but I'll look again
It would still be nice to have it shown to you, before you get dumped back to the lobby.
Also, would be nice for the campaigns.
in the basic usage it shows only your statistics but i have a workaround theory, try saving a replay and then viewing it, it should allow to view statistics of the side that's currently moving, you can also try manipulating side controls post-mortem. Well i must admit that wish is a bit more complicated, maybe the statistics button could be placed in the current status window next to each side instead of just showing the current..but then remember to shade it out until the end like other hidden info if the game uses shroud/fog
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Araja
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Araja » August 14th, 2009, 12:40 pm

silene wrote:
Kenpachi wrote:I don't want to have 3 versions of each map with the different win conditions. I just want one map that I can chose the win condition for.
From a technical point of view, you don't need three versions of the map. You could just have one map, and have a player decides during the first turn what the win conditions for the game would be. In fact, it doesn't even have to be the decision of a single player; one could easily code a vote system in WML.
The first two sentences sounded like you repeating what he just said :roll:
I like the idea of victory through owning all villages, It's one of the few things I can't swiftly think of a problem with.
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silene
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by silene » August 14th, 2009, 12:50 pm

Araja wrote:
silene wrote: From a technical point of view, you don't need three versions of the map. You could just have one map, and have a player decides during the first turn what the win conditions for the game would be. In fact, it doesn't even have to be the decision of a single player; one could easily code a vote system in WML.
The first two sentences sounded like you repeating what he just said
Yes, that was point: I was just stating that it already works in the currently released Wesnoth. With respect to selecting victory conditions, there is no need to add anything to the engine. Is it clearer now?

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melinath
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by melinath » August 14th, 2009, 11:42 pm

Of course it can be done with WML.

Can it be implemented as a choice in the multiplayer server? There are a lot of maps where you just have to kill opposing leaders to win. Having the option to choose these other victory conditions for just plain map data would greatly extend the possibilities for customizing matches.

If this were to be implemented, would the developers just need a sort of WML framework to plug the mapdata into?

Orin
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Orin » August 15th, 2009, 4:27 am

Supremacy and Domination victory conditions seem like they would play very similarly to the Normal victory condition. It is rare for a player to be able to build up a significant advantage but then lose his leader first, the only way Supremacy would differ from Normal. (If a player has a decisive advantage he is usually able to shield his leader). Domination is like that too -- If a player can control every village, it is almost certain that he can kill the enemy leader too, and vice-versa.
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Aethaeryn
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Aethaeryn » August 15th, 2009, 4:34 am

Orin wrote:Supremacy and Domination victory conditions seem like they would play very similarly to the Normal victory condition. It is rare for a player to be able to build up a significant advantage but then lose his leader first, the only way Supremacy would differ from Normal. (If a player has a decisive advantage he is usually able to shield his leader). Domination is like that too -- If a player can control every village, it is almost certain that he can kill the enemy leader too, and vice-versa.
Yes. I predict most domination games (with skilled players) would end with the losing leader (either the last unit or the last of a handful) dying on his last remaining village.
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Kenpachi
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Kenpachi » August 17th, 2009, 8:23 am

The thing is, when I was thinking of these ideas, I didn't have 2 or 3 player games in mind; I didn't even have 4 player games in mind. I was thinking of 8 - 12 player games. This is when how you win affects the play style.

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Aethaeryn
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Aethaeryn » August 18th, 2009, 1:44 am

Kenpachi wrote:The thing is, when I was thinking of these ideas, I didn't have 2 or 3 player games in mind; I didn't even have 4 player games in mind. I was thinking of 8 - 12 player games. This is when how you win affects the play style.
Afaik, it's currently impossible to have more than 9 human players.

Games with 6 or more players are extremely rare to see, and take many, many hours to play.
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Kenpachi
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Re: stats and win conditions for multiplayer

Post by Kenpachi » August 19th, 2009, 10:55 am

As my initial premise for wanting the win conditions was flawed, I think there is little point continuing to discuss them.

Can we talk about the after game stats stuff?

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