Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

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chaoticwanderer
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Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by chaoticwanderer » September 6th, 2008, 6:13 pm

Okay one addition I think would be useful, would be allowing someone to see the outcomes of an enemy attack on one of their units. So If have a dark adept, close to say, a cavalryman that he won't be kill in one turn, the player should be able to look at the outcomes of an attack against his dark adept to see the chances of the Dark Adept surviving the attack that will come next turn, to accurately judge the risk.

Because as of now, we can only see what will happen if we attack, but not what might happen when the enemy attacks us. And it would work the same way. You would just click the enemy unit, and have him "attack" your unit, which would pull up the outcomes, only obviously you can't actually attack.
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opensourcejunkie
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by opensourcejunkie » September 6th, 2008, 7:44 pm

that's an interesting idea. Would it need to work with enemy units that are not directly adjacent to your unit? 'cause the enemy could certainly move fresh units in for the attack.

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beetlenaut
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by beetlenaut » September 6th, 2008, 10:33 pm

chaoticwanderer wrote:You would just click the enemy unit, and have him "attack" your unit
All you need is a button in the Damage Calculation box that says "Retaliation". It shows the same information, but for the upcoming time of day. If the opponent will have a choice of weapons, it would just show his most damaging one (whichever one the AI would pick).
opensourcejunkie wrote:Would it need to work with enemy units that are not directly adjacent to your unit? 'cause the enemy could certainly move fresh units in for the attack.
This is something else, and would be even more useful. If your unit can't reach the enemy unit on this turn, but he can reach you on his turn, you have to do all the math yourself. It's easy to get it wrong with TOD, resistances and specials like charge or steadfast. You also have to round in the correct places.

It could look like this: Right click unit 1, select "Test Damage Calculation" from the drop down, and click on unit 2. The Damage Calculation box shows up. The current attack would be blank, but the new "Retaliation" button would show your opponent's attack on the best terrain he can reach next turn.

I would love this. I've done the arithmetic wrong too many times.
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Mica
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by Mica » September 7th, 2008, 3:21 am

About the whole sending your unit to them - you can't always do that because of ZoC, little movement, etc etc.

By the way, I am in favor of this idea, though perhaps not the way it is suggested to be implemented. I would like a button that puts a special ellipse around enemy units that can attack my [or my ally's] current selected unit (in the actions tab).

[edit]
I'd want the button as well as something to show me how much damage and how much chance they have to do all the different amounts they can do, the idea posted in the first post seems to be fine I guess.
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chaoticwanderer
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by chaoticwanderer » September 7th, 2008, 6:39 pm

Well, however its implemented, I'm sure it would be useful. I imagined it would be the same way you would use your own units. For example, if you click on an enemy it shows you the enemy's movement right? Then then you would drag the enemy's movement arrow(just like your own unit) and have it "attack" one of your units (The enemy wouldn't really attack or move), and you could see the different outcomes for each weapon when you clicked on the damage calc button, not just the one the AI would choose, because if you play against a human, you can't assume he'll do what a comp would do.
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Mabuse
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by Mabuse » September 8th, 2008, 3:15 pm

i dont think its nedeed.

i would find it better if the sluggish damage calculation get speed up.
i also dont know what so diffiicult is to judge the risk properly.

enemy has 7-3 melee, you are on 40% def - guess what you may get in returns lol
add daylight bonus and other things.
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Mica
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by Mica » September 8th, 2008, 7:12 pm

It's when you're adding in those bonuses and resistances and blah blah blah that it gets complicated.

Why should we be expected to have a calculator, be awesome at math, or do pencil and paper for every situation, if the game is already calculating these things? (they do it for the ai)
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beetlenaut
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by beetlenaut » September 8th, 2008, 7:29 pm

Mabuse wrote:...add daylight bonus and other things.
And therein lies the problem. You don't add, you multiply, and each "thing" results in a fraction that has to be rounded at some point. But, is that before or after you multiply the next thing? Take this example:
My leader is a deathblade. I want to use him to shield a wounded unit, but can he die if he does? I don't care much if he's wounded because he can retreat, but I can't have him dead(er). The only enemy that can reach him is a strong lancer. So, he can be hit with up to 13-3 pierce with charge, during the day. The deathblade has a 60% resistance to pierce. Quick: can he die?
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mameluke
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by mameluke » September 9th, 2008, 9:25 am

Nice but: To much statistics prevent you from playing the game imho.
I don't see any problems with an elf-woman hitting somebody with a mace...

PingPangQui
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by PingPangQui » September 9th, 2008, 10:22 am

mameluke wrote:Nice but: To much statistics prevent you from playing the game imho.
Indeed. It already feels sometimes as if people we calculating every single move they could make. In some situations this might be appropriate but not always. I see it as part of the game to judge (approximate) risks and moves using your own brain.
beetlenaut wrote:Take this example:
My leader is a deathblade. I want to use him to shield a wounded unit, but can he die if he does? I don't care much if he's wounded because he can retreat, but I can't have him dead(er). The only enemy that can reach him is a strong lancer. So, he can be hit with up to 13-3 pierce with charge, during the day. The deathblade has a 60% resistance to pierce. Quick: can he die?
I would say: "Have a try." ;) . Seriously, I think it's a good thing to not knowing the exact potential of your enemy. This way there is some additional uncertaincy (depending on the experience of the player) to what might happen (unless one uses a calculator or is very fast+accurate with their head) , thus there is some additional thrill, just like there is with fog.

I would go even so far that one shouldn't know the traits of an enemy units unless one engages or has the possibility to engage in a fight with this units.
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Mica
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by Mica » September 10th, 2008, 1:27 am

The game calculates these things already - why not just make it accessible sooner?

This shouldn't add any delayed time at all, it's really just letting you see your enemies attack probabilities.
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by Dave » September 10th, 2008, 4:20 am

The main issue is the interface. If someone wanted to work out a convenient interface for it and then programmed it, sure we'd add it.
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ilor
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by ilor » September 10th, 2008, 5:23 pm

I think it would be possible to allow drag and dropping enemy units onto other units and display the attack calculations. I can work on this if someone else thinks it's a reasonable interface.

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chaoticwanderer
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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by chaoticwanderer » September 10th, 2008, 8:49 pm

^I'm fine with that.
The RNG helps those who help themselves.

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Re: Idea: Allow for player to see enemy attack probabilities

Post by Sangel » September 11th, 2008, 1:27 pm

ilor wrote:I think it would be possible to allow drag and dropping enemy units onto other units and display the attack calculations. I can work on this if someone else thinks it's a reasonable interface.
The only problem I can see is the issue of terrain. If you drag and drop one unit on top of another, then you only have terrain info for one side of the battle; you don't know where the other side attacks from. I suppose this could be solved by the same system used for current attack calculations - the area of the hex you drag the mouse cursor two determines the direction you attack from.

Also, I can see numerous benefits to having drag-and-drop support in Wesnoth beyond attack calculations - for instance, it would be nice to be able to move units by dragging and dropping them.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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