New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

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Velrei
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Joined: May 14th, 2008, 3:11 pm

New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Velrei » May 14th, 2008, 4:10 pm

Hi, I'm a long-time player, but this is my first posting in the forumes.

My idea is basically for a base-healing and/or poison spellcaster line that is either equal or of lesser cost then the adept, as a support unit.

I'll just add the Lvl 1 and Lvl 2 Ideas for now, since I'm wondering whether the poison adept should have a Lvl3 progression anyway. Numbers given are very base since I haven't played wesnoth lately much, and the numbers are fading from me.

This line gives the undead another poison line, mostly ranged and non-magical, as well as a healing line.

This would be a change to undead as they are now, with no healers and probably increased use of poisons. I realize this decreases odds of being used, but it may be a fun addition if it doesn't unbalance the faction.

Thanks for any advice and opinions. :)

Embalmer Lvl 1 --> Poison Adept (or Poison Mage?) Lvl 2 *or* Corpsecrafter Lvl2 at level up

Poison Adept Lvl 2 --> Toximancer Lvl 3 ? (perhaps add more melee/ranged strikes?)

Corpsecrafter Lvl 2 --> ???? (perhaps add plague ranged attack)


Embalmer

These assistants to necromancers maintain his/her minions, and maintain a wide knowledge of chemicals in this effect. They have minimal ability to use magic, but when combined with their knowledge of chemicals, it becomes quite useful.

hp ~25-30
No Melee Attack
Ranged 8-1 impact poison attack Toxic Cloud(generates a toxic cloud near enemy) *does not* have the magical trait.
Heals +4

Poison Adept

Forgoing their study and supply of chemical substances to preserve undead, these mages have become obsessed with creating toxins.

hp ~30-40
Melee 6-1 blade poison Poison Dagger
Ranged 9-2 impact poison Toxic Cloud
loses heal ability

Corpse Crafter

Obsessed with augementing undead, these casters have lost the ability to generate toxic clouds as they experiment with more and more chemicals to assist undead and even create them.

hp ~30-40
Melee 6-2 impact plague Plague Staff
Ranged 8-2 arcane Arcane Wave
cures +8

Sangel
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Sangel » May 14th, 2008, 4:50 pm

Not a bad idea for an enemy leader-type line in a campaign, but I'm afraid that it would disturb the factional balance too much for our current multiplayer setup.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Velrei
Posts: 26
Joined: May 14th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Velrei » May 15th, 2008, 1:34 pm

Eh, oh well, it was worth a suggestion.

I do like the factions as they are now, balanced, but sometimes I think that the only way any faction will get anything new (which would unbalance them) is if *every* faction got something new. Naturally, this is something highly unlikely.

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Chris NS
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Chris NS » May 15th, 2008, 4:29 pm

The idea of making an "embalmer" as an undead healer is certainly very interesting and would work rather well in a campaign.

But ...

The default era for multiplayer is deliberately set up so that all factions have their strengths and weaknesses. So ideas that address a weakness in a faction are unlikely to get in. One of the weaknesses of undead is that there is no healing unit available. There are advantages that compensate for this, so this is unlikely to change.

If you want to get this included, you can either make a campaign or era with this unit it, or develop the unit in the faction and era contribution thread and hope someone wants it. I've certainly used other people's units for my campaign if they fitted with what I wanted.

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pauxlo
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by pauxlo » May 15th, 2008, 7:42 pm

(Only for UMC.)

For a special tweak, maybe it could only heal undead units, no living ones (for mechanical, I've no idea).
So it would not help bats, adepts (and follow-ups apart from lich) or other enbalmers (and follow-ups), only your undead minions.
(Then you don't really need "cures", since undead can't be poisoned anyway.)

Code: Select all

#define ABILITY_HEAL_UNDEAD_4
   [heals]
      id="undead_healing"
      name= _ "maintain minions"
      name_inactive= _ "maintain minions"
      description= _ "This unit heals allied undead units on adjacent fields by up to 4 hit points on the beginning of its turn."
      affect_allies=yes
      affect_self=no
      [affect_adjacent]
          adjacent=n,ne,se,s,sw,nw
          [filter]
             race=undead
          [/filter]
      [/affect_adjacent]
      value=4
   [/heals]
#enddef
Instead of filtering the race, there should be a filter on the trait (or on the "livingness"), I think, but I didn't find out how to do this.

For the corpse crafter, add the same with +4.

michchar
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by michchar » May 15th, 2008, 9:17 pm

i thought the undead were immune to heal... any ways, interesting idea, but i dont think the UD needs a healer...just because other factions have a healer doesnt mean that UD needs one

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shadowm
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by shadowm » May 16th, 2008, 1:53 am

Drakes, knalgans and northeners don't have healers, either. And they do fine already.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

Velrei
Posts: 26
Joined: May 14th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Velrei » May 16th, 2008, 1:54 pm

michchar wrote:i thought the undead were immune to heal... any ways, interesting idea, but i dont think the UD needs a healer...just because other factions have a healer doesnt mean that UD needs one
To clarify, I am not saying they *need* a healer. I do think the factions are balanced as they are. It was just an interesting idea I thought of, and decided to share.

Velrei
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Joined: May 14th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Velrei » May 16th, 2008, 2:01 pm

Shadow Master wrote:Drakes, knalgans and northeners don't have healers, either. And they do fine already.
I'm not saying they *need* a healer, it was just an idea. I think all the factions are balanced right now.

Also, the drakes do have a healer in the form of saurian spellcasters. Knalgans have the healthy random trait which helps compensate for their slow movement (dwarve only) to villages to heal. The northerns do have trolls that regenerate to help hold areas also.

...I do however repeat, seriously, that I think the game is balanced. Undead are even my favorite faction, although I'm fairly good with anything but drakes at this point (need alot of work on them :hmm: ).

michchar
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Joined: March 21st, 2008, 8:29 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by michchar » May 16th, 2008, 9:55 pm

@ shadow master: i didnt say all...just *other* factions.
Anyways, the UD already have a poison unit, why do they need another one? also, you need to make another branch for the unit because of RIPLIB... those two advancements currently violate it.

arielbys
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Joined: May 6th, 2008, 2:57 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by arielbys » May 17th, 2008, 8:29 am

Velrei wrote:Hi, I'm a long-time player, but this is my first posting in the forumes.

My idea is basically for a base-healing and/or poison spellcaster line that is either equal or of lesser cost then the adept, as a support unit.

I'll just add the Lvl 1 and Lvl 2 Ideas for now, since I'm wondering whether the poison adept should have a Lvl3 progression anyway. Numbers given are very base since I haven't played wesnoth lately much, and the numbers are fading from me.

This line gives the undead another poison line, mostly ranged and non-magical, as well as a healing line.

This would be a change to undead as they are now, with no healers and probably increased use of poisons. I realize this decreases odds of being used, but it may be a fun addition if it doesn't unbalance the faction.

Thanks for any advice and opinions. :)

Embalmer Lvl 1 --> Poison Adept (or Poison Mage?) Lvl 2 *or* Corpsecrafter Lvl2 at level up

Poison Adept Lvl 2 --> Toximancer Lvl 3 ? (perhaps add more melee/ranged strikes?)

Corpsecrafter Lvl 2 --> ???? (perhaps add plague ranged attack)


Embalmer

These assistants to necromancers maintain his/her minions, and maintain a wide knowledge of chemicals in this effect. They have minimal ability to use magic, but when combined with their knowledge of chemicals, it becomes quite useful.

hp ~25-30
No Melee Attack
Ranged 8-1 impact poison attack Toxic Cloud(generates a toxic cloud near enemy) *does not* have the magical trait.
Heals +4

Poison Adept

Forgoing their study and supply of chemical substances to preserve undead, these mages have become obsessed with creating toxins.

hp ~30-40
Melee 6-1 blade poison Poison Dagger
Ranged 9-2 impact poison Toxic Cloud
loses heal ability

Corpse Crafter

Obsessed with augementing undead, these casters have lost the ability to generate toxic clouds as they experiment with more and more chemicals to assist undead and even create them.

hp ~30-40
Melee 6-2 impact plague Plague Staff
Ranged 8-2 arcane Arcane Wave
cures +8
RIPLiB

While advancing, the Embalmer loses either poison or heal.

Sangel
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Sangel » May 17th, 2008, 6:50 pm

I should probably add that one area where healers are particularly useful is in campaigns. While multiplayer is balanced faction vs faction, campaigns are balanced scenario vs player. Having healers available during a campaign makes it much easier to build up a supply of higher-level units, which tends to make the campaign more high-powered and exciting.

So, having a undead-healing unit which designers can borrow for their undead campaigns would be highly useful.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Velrei
Posts: 26
Joined: May 14th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Velrei » May 17th, 2008, 7:52 pm

michchar wrote:@ shadow master: i didnt say all...just *other* factions.
Anyways, the UD already have a poison unit, why do they need another one? also, you need to make another branch for the unit because of RIPLIB... those two advancements currently violate it.
I fail to see what you mean, one branch gives up toxins to further improve it's healing ability, the other gives up healing to further improve it's toxins.

Velrei
Posts: 26
Joined: May 14th, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by Velrei » May 17th, 2008, 7:54 pm

pauxlo wrote:(Only for UMC.)

For a special tweak, maybe it could only heal undead units, no living ones (for mechanical, I've no idea).
So it would not help bats, adepts (and follow-ups apart from lich) or other enbalmers (and follow-ups), only your undead minions.
(Then you don't really need "cures", since undead can't be poisoned anyway.)

Code: Select all

#define ABILITY_HEAL_UNDEAD_4
   [heals]
      id="undead_healing"
      name= _ "maintain minions"
      name_inactive= _ "maintain minions"
      description= _ "This unit heals allied undead units on adjacent fields by up to 4 hit points on the beginning of its turn."
      affect_allies=yes
      affect_self=no
      [affect_adjacent]
          adjacent=n,ne,se,s,sw,nw
          [filter]
             race=undead
          [/filter]
      [/affect_adjacent]
      value=4
   [/heals]
#enddef
Instead of filtering the race, there should be a filter on the trait (or on the "livingness"), I think, but I didn't find out how to do this.

For the corpse crafter, add the same with +4.
Yeah, that would make more sense, and be true to what I feel the purpose of the unit is. Thanks for the advice.

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pauxlo
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Re: New Undead Faction Line: Embalmer

Post by pauxlo » May 17th, 2008, 8:25 pm

Velrei wrote:
michchar wrote:@ shadow master: i didnt say all...just *other* factions.
Anyways, the UD already have a poison unit, why do they need another one? also, you need to make another branch for the unit because of RIPLIB... those two advancements currently violate it.
I fail to see what you mean, one branch gives up toxins to further improve it's healing ability, the other gives up healing to further improve it's toxins.
Search for RIPLIB. Basically, it means that there must be at least one advancement, which is strictly superior (= in all aspects (apart from level/upkeep) at least same good, and at least one aspect better) to the base unit - in this case: one which has at least heal+4 and a poisoning ranged impact weapon (>= 8-1), same or more hp, same or better movement type and mp.

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