New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

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ced_ne
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New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by ced_ne »

Hi !

It's been a long time that I think about it... Give firststrike to all the dwarvish thunderer tree.
Why ? Because shooting something with a gun is more fast than using a bow, and more fast than casting a spell.

But finally, I think it would be nicer if this wasn't an ability that all dwarvish thunderer have, but only few of them, so make a special trait for them.
Making a trait like that need some counterpart because I think this trait should be more valuable than something like "resilient" or "quick".
Because this dwarves aim very fast, it would cause some inaccuracy (i.e. don't hit the heart of the head), so they would deal little few damage, let's say -10% of damage. I think it's good that way because "firststrike" is only usefull when defending, but this unit would always have -10% of shootpower.

There isn't any unit that have firststrike for range attack, and I think it would be very nice to have this feature, but I think it's good to keep this feature very rare, so a specific trait is the good idea, especially for strategic issue ;)
(for example : use standard thunderer for offense because they deal slightly more damage, and use thunderer with firststrike for defense against spellcaster or archer).

I don't have idea for the name of the trait, and because I don't speak english very well...
Maybe something like "fast-gunner"...
-- please don't blame me about my bad english spoken ! --
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Chris NS
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by Chris NS »

Interesting idea for a custom unit, but far too powerful to use as a regular random trait, even with a 10% penalty. (And offsetting balance issues with more compliations is generally a bad idea.) Traits are generally meant to only make a small difference to the unit, which is why loyal and fearless aren't used as random traits. A trait that can potentially enable a nearly-dead dwarf to take out opponents with far more HP seems just too overpowered to me.

Would make an interesting unit in a UMC though.
ced_ne
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by ced_ne »

Oups, I forgot to mention this would apply only to the ranged attack...
So a nearly dead dwarf with "fast-gunner" trait will be simply killed with a melee attack.
And IMO it has always been a bad idea to finish those dwarves with a ranged attack, with or without that trait :)

And for the balance issue, after many test, I don't think it's overpowered. I think it's just as useful as "resilient" or "quick". But of course I haven't played hundred of beta-test with it...
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vicza
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by vicza »

ced_ne wrote:Why ? Because shooting something with a gun is more fast than using a bow, and more fast than casting a spell.
More fast? Are you sure? :o It's not a modern machine-gun, it's such a thing you have to manually load, put a matcher etc. It simply can't be fast. And, BTW, the unit's description says: "Though a single shot from these 'thundersticks' can take several minutes to prepare, the results are seen by the Dwarves as being well worth the wait."

Chris NS wrote:which is why loyal and fearless aren't used as random traits.
Hmm, why, then, trolls have fearless as a random trait?
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TL
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by TL »

Shooting is fast. Reloading is slow. That's why thunderers get one big attack right off the bat and then they're out of attacks.

Which is another reason I think this is unnecessary: thunderers already get their shots off faster than archers or mages, without needing a random firststrike trait.
vicza
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by vicza »

TL wrote:Shooting is fast.
Are you sure? I still think they have to manually ignite the powder (or whatever they have in these tubes). I don't think it's very fast and facile.
AI
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by AI »

Medieval firearms were both slower and less accurate than good (cross)bows, the upside was that they required far less training and could be made far more powerful. (cannons were the first ones, scaled down versions only came later)
ced_ne
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by ced_ne »

BTW they shoot first, THEN reload.
Nobody come into battle with an empty musket, then load it in the heat of battle ;)

About technologies, dwarves always have better technology than human. So I'm sure they could have good gun, like musket.
-- please don't blame me about my bad english spoken ! --
Velensk
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by Velensk »

The dwarves do have better "gun" (lets not start the thunderstick vs gun argument) technology than humans, I.E. they have them. They do come in with it loaded, there is not wait for them to fire, they just spend the rest of the combat reloading after they fire their one shot.
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CarpeGuitarrem
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by CarpeGuitarrem »

WINR, it works both ways.

As far as the mechanic goes, I love the idea of adding firststrike into some of the thunderer line, for the ranged attacks only. It would be a first (a ranged firststrike), and it would give them a distinct flavor (being able to shoot first). I don't think it would unbalance it. At the very most, you'd just have to adjust the thunderer's gold price. I don't think it needs to be a separate trait. Just give the Dragonguard (and possibly the Thunderguard) firststrike on their ranged.
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Qes
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by Qes »

CarpeGuitarrem wrote:WINR, it works both ways.

As far as the mechanic goes, I love the idea of adding firststrike into some of the thunderer line, for the ranged attacks only. It would be a first (a ranged firststrike), and it would give them a distinct flavor (being able to shoot first). I don't think it would unbalance it. At the very most, you'd just have to adjust the thunderer's gold price. I don't think it needs to be a separate trait. Just give the Dragonguard (and possibly the Thunderguard) firststrike on their ranged.

To be quite honest, when I first started playing, and realized there was such a thing as "first-strike" via the spearman - and was subsequently introduced to the thunderstick weilding-dwarves, i just assumed they'd also have first strike, but for range.

I was very wrong.

Yes, first strikeing at such power-magnitudes is a scary thing. However, I'd argue that these dwarves should have firststrike, but instead of costing more, they're melee should be gimped further. As it is, they still make for a decent melee unit if nothing else is in range of a target. This could change so that, like mages, they're really never equipped to be doing melee outside of measly defenses.

Something that might be fun (but not for mainline) could be eliminating the melee weapon all together.

Instead give the thunderstick dwarves a few uses of the gun.

The first is the ranged "shoot em in the face" that we know and love. Most likely with first strike.
The second would be a defensive only "shoot em before they stab ya in the face" first strike "melee-responce". (it's range would be melee, but it'd have identical stats to the ranged attack, however it'd only be defensively useful.)
and/or another option which would be to use the thunderstick as a bashing weapon for up close work.

All of which could be fun.

As it is, its a big risk to build the suckers - because as the many threads have told us, luck is in the numbers, and more strikes means more average luck. Fewer strikes means obedience to the RNG gods. The death-1 attack is the halmark of prayer-tactics.

So if the dwarves had a second 'unique' use for the gun, outside of this sphere - I would see it as an overall gain, just so long as balance was maintained. I say take away their melee ability (at all) and give them a defensive only, first strike responce with their boom-sticks.

Thunderer
neutral
HP:37 MP:4 XP:40
melee: 18 - 1 pierce first strike (defensive only)
ranged: 18 - 1 pierce

Isnt that self-balancing?
It loses a 6-2 melee attack for a defensive only first strike with it's thunderstick.

I think this would make them more useful in defensive positions, and in the open field - where charging units would have to think twice.
Also - they'd not be useful in melee combat on the offensive at all - making other dwarven units preferable for those roles.

Just a thought,
-Qes
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vicza
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by vicza »

Thunderstick with bayonet? :shock: Hmm... :hmm:

Dwarves have already defensive unit -- a guardsman. Why another one? And, I think, with only one attack left, however mighty it be, it would be too much lucky-based and thus weaker.
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irrevenant
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by irrevenant »

Qes wrote:To be quite honest, when I first started playing, and realized there was such a thing as "first-strike" via the spearman - and was subsequently introduced to the thunderstick weilding-dwarves, i just assumed they'd also have first strike, but for range.

I was very wrong.
AFAIK, Vicza is right - with primitive firearm technology it's time consuming and awkward to load - and, AFAICT, it can't be preloaded. (I believe that's because the powder shouldn't be exposed to the elements for an extended period, but I could be wrong).

It's not really relevant though: If a Thunderer attacks (eg.) an Elvish Archer, the Archer will be in position, bow drawn, ready for the attack.
CarpeGuitarrem
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by CarpeGuitarrem »

irrevenant wrote:
Qes wrote:To be quite honest, when I first started playing, and realized there was such a thing as "first-strike" via the spearman - and was subsequently introduced to the thunderstick weilding-dwarves, i just assumed they'd also have first strike, but for range.

I was very wrong.
AFAIK, Vicza is right - with primitive firearm technology it's time consuming and awkward to load - and, AFAICT, it can't be preloaded. (I believe that's because the powder shouldn't be exposed to the elements for an extended period, but I could be wrong).

It's not really relevant though: If a Thunderer attacks (eg.) an Elvish Archer, the Archer will be in position, bow drawn, ready for the attack.
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irrevenant
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Re: New trait for dwarves : fast-gunner

Post by irrevenant »

CarpeGuitarrem wrote:*cough*WINR*cough*
True, and I almost said that myself, but this is really an argument about intuitiveness not realism. ie. Wesnoth doesn't have to be realistic, but it shouldn't run counter to the player's reasonable expectations either.

Regardless, the current Thunderer passes both tests, so it's a moot point.
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