Rant about unit stats...

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TrashMan
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Rant about unit stats...

Post by TrashMan »

I've been looking over unit stats, noting the differences between HP and max possible damage for each tier. Now the following is particualy interesting. Anyone notice anything here that doesn't fell right? :shock:


Elven Archer(lvl1) - 29 HP, 10M, 20R
Elven Ranger(lvl2) - 42HP, 21M, 28R
Elven Avenger (lvl3) - 55HP, 32M, 40R

Elven Fighter (lvl1) - 33HP, 20M, 9R
Elven Hero (lvl2) - 51HP, 32M, 18R
Elven Champion (lvl3) - 70HP, 45M, 27R

Horseman (lvl1) - HP38, 18(36)M
Knight (lvl2) - 58HP, 32M, 28(56)M
Grand Knight (lvl3) - 78HP, 48M, 34(68)M




Should a lvl2 unit be able to kill a lvl1 unit with a single strike?
In general the HP/ max possible damage relationship for units is somewhere around - max possible damage = 2/3 of units HP.
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turin
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by turin »

If the matchup is well suited for the level 2 unit, why not?

You seem to assume that your audience will agree with you that there something wrong here, but I for one don't see any problem.
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Sorrow »

I don't see a problem or understand what your getting at.
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TL
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by TL »

TrashMan wrote:Should a lvl2 unit be able to kill a lvl1 unit with a single strike?
The thunderguard says yes. I wouldn't argue with his boomstick if I were you.
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Wintermute »

TrashMan wrote:Anyone notice anything here that doesn't fell right? :shock:
It is quite powerful, anyone would admit, BUT, keep in mind what needs to happen for a horse to become lvl 2, then kill such a unit in one strike. Also note that there might be *really bad* ramifications if your level 2 horse charges something and fails to kill it.

Personally, I think a level 2 horseman should be able to "fell [things] right". :P

If you know of a situation where this has been a real problem, perhaps you could post a replay?
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by TrashMan »

IMHO, such ONE hit kills should be very rare or shouldn't exist at all.

A single hit from a knight (and most charge capable units have 2-3 hits), even without the charge bonus, is enough to kill some lvl 1 units outright.
The possible problem is units dying too easily and hte battle ending up nothing more than a coin toss. Save...end Turn...reload if enemy kills your unit ... keep reloading until it finally misses ALL of it's attacks (since one is enough).
That's my only beef.
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TL
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by TL »

TrashMan wrote:A single hit from a knight (and most charge capable units have 2-3 hits), even without the charge bonus, is enough to kill some lvl 1 units outright.
Let's see. A strong knight (15) at day (18.75) attacks unit with -20% pierce resistance (22.5). That rounds to 22 damage per hit. A quick, intelligent thief has 23 HP, and you're not going to find any level 1 units with lower HP other than the augur, which has +20% pierce resist (back down to 15 damage). So no, a single hit from a knight is not enough to kill any level 1 units outright without the charge bonus. One can only conclude therefore that you are smoking "the chronic".

Now, of course this is largely irrelevant since knights do have the charge bonus and this changes everything. However, a charging knight's feat of one-shotting level 1 units is not wholly unique; many level 2 units with 1 or 2 powerful strikes can one-shot weaker level 1s.
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by turin »

TrashMan wrote:IMHO, such ONE hit kills should be very rare or shouldn't exist at all.

A single hit from a knight (and most charge capable units have 2-3 hits), even without the charge bonus, is enough to kill some lvl 1 units outright.
The possible problem is units dying too easily and hte battle ending up nothing more than a coin toss. Save...end Turn...reload if enemy kills your unit ... keep reloading until it finally misses ALL of it's attacks (since one is enough).
That's my only beef.
Sounds like the problem is with you, not the game; you don't seem to realize that in Wesnoth, unlike, say, in Fire Emblem, you usually can't play without losing any units. Wesnoth isn't about having all your guys survive; it's about having the ones who matter survive.
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Trau »

If you really want your level 1 units to not be instakilled by a knight (actually, plenty of level 1 units can even be instakilled by the horseman... and horsemen can instakill some level 2's while lancers can instakill some level 3's), you can

A. keep your instakillable units away from the Knight's reach with ZoC or simple distance.
B. If that is impossible, set up situations where even if the knight was to try to instakill your unit, it would still be disadvantageous to the enemy player. Nobody would charge a target on a fairly defensible ground (even plains gives most units 40% defense!) if he stood to lose his expensive knight/horseman afterwards and isn't even guaranteed a kill in the first place!

Wesnoth can be thought of as chess in some instances, where there are many ways for one side to capture the other's pieces on the board, but few such opportunities are ever taken because the opponent has ensured that it would not be worth it (you capture my pawn with your rook, but I capture your rook)
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Sangel »

turin wrote:Sounds like the problem is with you, not the game; you don't seem to realize that in Wesnoth, unlike, say, in Fire Emblem, you usually can't play without losing any units. Wesnoth isn't about having all your guys survive; it's about having the ones who matter survive.
And sending flowers to the families of those that don't. So many flowers...
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Dave »

turin wrote:
TrashMan wrote:IMHO, such ONE hit kills should be very rare or shouldn't exist at all.

A single hit from a knight (and most charge capable units have 2-3 hits), even without the charge bonus, is enough to kill some lvl 1 units outright.
The possible problem is units dying too easily and hte battle ending up nothing more than a coin toss. Save...end Turn...reload if enemy kills your unit ... keep reloading until it finally misses ALL of it's attacks (since one is enough).
That's my only beef.
Sounds like the problem is with you, not the game; you don't seem to realize that in Wesnoth, unlike, say, in Fire Emblem, you usually can't play without losing any units. Wesnoth isn't about having all your guys survive; it's about having the ones who matter survive.
Note that in Fire Emblem, it is much easier than in Wesnoth for a higher level unit to annihilate lower level units, and have a guarantee of doing so.

It's also actually reasonably hard to guarantee not losing any characters in most Fire Emblem games. This is because Fire Emblem has critical hits which do triple damage, and amongst equally matched characters that typically means insta-death. The only reason it's not much harder is because enemy characters don't tend to have that many items etc which give them high chances of criticals. (Also the AI in Fire Emblem really is dumb as toast).

David
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Wintermute »

TrashMan wrote:IMHO, such ONE hit kills should be very rare or shouldn't exist at all.
They are very rare in multiplayer games, which are how the units are balanced anyway. It doesn't really make sense to balance things for single player games, as those are balanced by 'rigging' the gold and numbers of units to make a fight vs. the AI interesting.
TrashMan wrote:The possible problem is units dying too easily and hte battle ending up nothing more than a coin toss. Save...end Turn...reload if enemy kills your unit ... keep reloading until it finally misses ALL of it's attacks (since one is enough).
That's my only beef.
That is your only beef? The unit should change so that you don't have to save-load so much? :roll:
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by irrevenant »

Didn't we just do the "Horsemen are overpowered" discussion? :?
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Re: Rant about unit stats...

Post by Thrawn »

irrevenant wrote:Didn't we just do the "Horsemen are overpowered" discussion? :?
Wait...yeah.
Please continue the discussion in the horseman survivability thread. It will be a bit of a tangent, but one that iirc is already in the thread.

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