A few simple ideas

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TrashMan
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A few simple ideas

Post by TrashMan » May 1st, 2008, 11:28 am

- units having 1 (or 2 for heroes) item slots. Slot would be at the bottom of the selected unit stats screen.

- items that go into the slots. With various effects like bonus damage, reduced or increased defense or a special ability. Such items should be few and far in between - certanly you should only be able to equip only a few units by the end of the game, and not swim in magical artifacts.

- trigger abilities - basicely having abilities with a chance of triggering upon a sucessfull hit. Let's say a Sword of Explosions as an item that has a 30% chance on a hit to deal an additional 15 points of fire damage. Or it can be a unit attack ability. Also defensive abilities that can be triggered when hit (again, a chance factor) or defensive items (magic armor or shield that increases defense by 10-20%). It's really no more complicated that the current to hit % units have, this adds some more decision making(do I go for that +3 fire damage that always happens or that 25% on hit 10 damage?)

- entrench - pay a bit of gold to have your unit entrench itself, making some makshift (and non-permanent) defenses.It could be just a hole with rocks as cover or a small camp with a wooden wall that lasts a a few turns. Either way it grants a defensive bonus on top of the terrain bonus (or penalty). Would this fall under the "building" category? It's non-permanent makshift defenses.


EDIT: I haven't finished the game yet so excuse me if I suggested something that's already in the game.

EDIT2: I'm making some art for the game (new unit - see my avatar). Not much, but maybe it will be of some use. I'll post it later.
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revolushn
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by revolushn » May 1st, 2008, 9:35 pm

Entrench really does seem like a cool idea - really useful in those scenarios when you are attacked from all sides. In saying that though, those scenarios can always be completed without the 'entrench ability...

Also; I don't think Wesnoth is swimming with magical items - unless i've been missing out. I'm pretty sure the developers have made posts to the effect of they DON'T want too many magical items as that (rightly so) takes away from other aspects of the game.

TheArchitect
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TheArchitect » May 1st, 2008, 11:17 pm

Sounds like some pretty good ideas but I think i've seen a few similar posts; the developers didn't like them... :cry:

btw, I like the Avatar

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TrashMan
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TrashMan » May 1st, 2008, 11:30 pm

The Avatar would be the Holy Avenger - a new unit I'm making.

I'm currently trying to sketch a portrait of it (Damn, I wish I bought a sketchpad...drawing on paper and scanning doesn't give you as good results..lol) and then I'll get to making animations.

I noticed a few items so far (holy water, trident) but what bugs me is that they appear to be permanent - I can't give them to another unit.
What I'm suggesting is a inventory slot each unit has so you can mix stuff up as you see fit....and easily see which unit has what.



EDIT: Oh, could you add Restart Scenario to the menu?
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DDR
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by DDR » May 2nd, 2008, 1:05 am

I think both can already be done with some complex WML. ... No one has done it yet, though.

You do unit art? I could use a devling unit for my campaign, if you are intrested. :D

[edit] there is a 'return to start' button in the menu. Below the autosaves.

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TrashMan
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TrashMan » May 2nd, 2008, 1:32 am

I mod every game I fancy..been doing it for years now..2D, 3D ..from Baldurs Gate & System Shock to Freespace 2, Oblivion and whatnot. More games than I can count.. :lol2:

Speaking of the Return to start - it only appears if you aren't too far into the scenario (I think 5-6 turns or so).
Last edited by TrashMan on May 2nd, 2008, 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CarpeGuitarrem
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by CarpeGuitarrem » May 2nd, 2008, 4:24 am

Hmm...as far as items go, the consensus is that making items a regular part of the game turns it from a tactical game into more of an RPG. The basic idea is to keep a balance. So items, except for a few rare things like the Holy Water and Trident mentioned, are generally not a mainstay of Wesnoth.

I do like the idea of conditional abilities. I'd be interested to see something like a melee weapon with "Charge 30%". In other words, it has a 30% chance of making a charge attack. So, like a sword that can do extra damage on any of its hits. Seems like something a fencer might like.
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by thespaceinvader » May 2nd, 2008, 4:35 am

Regarding restarting the scenario: there is an option in the preferences menu which controls the amount of autosaves the game retains during a given scenario. Set it to infinite and you will be able to return to the beginning of the scenario any time.
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TrashMan
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TrashMan » May 2nd, 2008, 10:02 am

CarpeGuitarrem wrote:Hmm...as far as items go, the consensus is that making items a regular part of the game turns it from a tactical game into more of an RPG. The basic idea is to keep a balance. So items, except for a few rare things like the Holy Water and Trident mentioned, are generally not a mainstay of Wesnoth.
Since when does that make a game any LESS tactical? Ever played Warhammer: Dark Omen? One of the best games ever - both tacticly and strategicely. And units there (a whole squad) had two item slots...of course, you'd be extreemely lucky if you picked up enough items to give one to each unit. You generally didn't have many items just lying around. But there comes the decision - do you give that magical shield that deflects arrows away from the whole squad to your crossbowmen or your knights?

Here's a shot of the mercenary cavalry charging in and using the magical item (the sword that shoots fireballs in the squad inventory slot in the lower right corner)
Image


So one shouldn't be so hasty with rejecting concepts that are related to the game (we got leveling and items already) and add more tactical depth. Adding a single inventory slot so you can drop those items or give them to other units and adding a few more items doesn't seem like it would change gameplay in any bad way.
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TrashMan
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TrashMan » May 2nd, 2008, 2:27 pm

Here's a few sprites:

Image

The first two are the Holy Avenger with different shoulderpads.
The second two are my attempts at a Phoenix Knight.

second row is the possible Idle pose
Fourth row is my current experiment with the primary attack.


I envisioned both of these to be a upgrade of a Paladin.
The Holy Avanger is specialized more in evil smiting and less in healing. First attack would be a arcane chop with the holy greatsword, second would be a piercing attack as he skewers the enemy with the sword. Possible lightbeam attack too...maybe.

The Phoenix Knight would would do fire damage with his flaming sword and would have great fire resistance, but be more vulnerable to cold. Maybe add regeneration to him. Speaking of which, one can inflict more than 1 damage type, right? Like 8-2 slashing + 3 fire?
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Lizard
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by Lizard » May 2nd, 2008, 3:00 pm

I think the probability, that any of this expect the "trigger abilities" goes into mainline is near 0%.
I like the trigger abilities, it would be nice if they could be a future WML special. s.th. like:

Code: Select all

[specials]
[specials_prob]
  change=30 # a value between 0 and 100
  apply_to=strike # possible Values are strike and combat(you can't apply things like berserk to a weapon)
  # you specials like in a specials tag like
  [damage]
    ...
  [/damage]
  # you may use as much specials as you like. They will either all work or all won't.
[/specials_prob]
# other specials
[/specials]
Before every strike/combat a "dice" is rolled and if it is successful the specials in the tag are activated for this strike/combat. If things apply to second_unit it will be active the next backstrike. If there aren't any more ... bad luck.
would also bee nice if there is s.th. like this for the [abilities]-tag
But whether this is includes depends (as always) on a Coder.
------------------------------
Might be, that this is already doable, since I remember "5% to get berserk" or s.th like this in Bob' RPG era.
------------------------------
about your other things:
most are doable in UMC, about the "items that go into the slots" I'm unsure. It might be doable via a custom Theme, bu I don't know much about them expect that they exist.
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CarpeGuitarrem
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by CarpeGuitarrem » May 3rd, 2008, 8:19 pm

TrashMan wrote: So one shouldn't be so hasty with rejecting concepts that are related to the game (we got leveling and items already) and add more tactical depth. Adding a single inventory slot so you can drop those items or give them to other units and adding a few more items doesn't seem like it would change gameplay in any bad way.
It adds more complexity, though, so it goes against the ideas of KISS (Keep it short and simple) and OAB (Options are bad [when they involve gameplay complexity]). The complexity and tactical-ness comes from how units are used, not from how they're customized.
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TrashMan
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TrashMan » May 3rd, 2008, 10:08 pm

A single inventory slot isn't simple????? :shock:

There are things like taking the KISS concept a bit too far....After all, this isn't a game for 1st graders, is it?
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by Cuyo Quiz » May 3rd, 2008, 11:32 pm

Adding something JUST for customization AND unit customization aren't simple. Suddenly Spearmen (or any other unit) do damage/anything that they don't normally, which adds ever more variables and specifics to the game. Wesnoth gets its variety largely from terrain defenses, damage resistances and simple weapon specials (decision taken since the beginning), all coming from a point of view of "not adding too much", complexity in modesty, if you will.

You're welcome to try and do it in a scenario or add-on, though.
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TL
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Re: A few simple ideas

Post by TL » May 3rd, 2008, 11:36 pm

TrashMan wrote:There are things like taking the KISS concept a bit too far....After all, this isn't a game for 1st graders, is it?
Wesnoth is already a good deal more complicated in its ruleset than, say, chess. The rules of chess can be taught to a reasonably bright 6-year-old, but chess is by no means a game primarily for 6-year-olds. Simplicity of design does not mean lack of depth.

That said, I for one wouldn't mind seeing some engine support for a simple item system like the one proposed. It can already be done via WML, but it takes a bit of extra processing overhead and the interface is pretty clunky. I don't exactly think Wesnoth needs it but it would be nice to have.

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