Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

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TrashMan
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by TrashMan »

Why not just set him to level like other LVL5 units?

Have him start with a little less DMG and have it scale up normally
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by vicza »

irrevenant wrote:Ancient Liches and Armageddon Drakes are meant to be front line units
Only they don't know about it themselves, I'm afraid. Every time I met them, they sat in their keeps and recruited units. In httt, both are even passive_leaders.
Level isn't a measure of physical toughness and power, it's a measure of utility. The Elvish Shyde, for example is L3 despite her pitiful HP and damage (the L2 Elvish Captain is superior in both) because the combination of flight and Healing+8/Cures make her a phenomenally useful supporting player.
Yes. Elvish Shyde has wings and healing, Grand Marshal has leadership, Armageddon Drake is terribly powerful by his own... But Delfador (like Great Mage, btw; there was already a theme about it in this forum) has nothing special. Nothing. (Meanwhile enemies, attacking him, receive their +5XP for it). So, I say: if you don't want to give him more power, give him some special ability. His mission is to train young fighters, right? So it could be something connected to this. Not leadership, of course, it would be too trivial. But, say, if a unit fights next to him, he (unit) receives +1 more XP bonus, than usual. Or even doubles it. I.e. 2 XP for fighting lvl1, 4 XP for lvl2 etc.
Delfador does a ton of damage and it's magical.
I don't think 14-4 is "a ton of damage" (especially considering that he can miss 3, or even all 4 times). And it's less, than lvl4 Great Mage, anyway.
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by turin »

vicza wrote:
Delfador does a ton of damage and it's magical.
I don't think 14-4 is "a ton of damage" (especially considering that he can miss 3, or even all 4 times). And it's less, than lvl4 Great Mage, anyway.
Any unit can miss "3 or even all 4 times". That doesn't mean 14-4 magical isn't a whole lot of damage - it is.

And how many times does it have to be repeated that Delfador is level 5 for flavor only, and he is intended to be roughly equivalent to a level 3 power-wise?...
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Chris NS
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by Chris NS »

I can see cases either way for making Delfador more powerful or leaving his power as it is. (Certainly a variant of HttT with a more powerful Delfador would be interesting to at least experiment with.)

What I'm not too convinced with is being level 5 for "flavour". You can argue all day about flavour, but it's a novice campaign and it's not that intuitive for beginners. Hmm ... my level 5 mage against that level 2 troll. Should beat the easy! Splat.

I'd rather that a level does what it says on the tin, be it level 3 as he is or souped up to a real level 5.
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by Noyga »

I think the only reason for Delfador being Lvl 5 is it gives him an higher level than Archmages and Great Mages.
Since he's an unique hero his level isn't really meaning full (as it's high enough not to be affected by leadership in HttT), he could be level 50 it won't alter much the gameplay (the only effect is the AI would probably find it's a more valuable target, which wouldn't affect much most scenarios).
For me he has level 4 stats (just a little too powerful to be level 3).
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by AI »

Except that any unit attacking an L50 unit is likely to level up if it survives.

The level of a unit, even a loyal unit, isn't just flavor.
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by turin »

Chris NS wrote:What I'm not too convinced with is being level 5 for "flavour". You can argue all day about flavour, but it's a novice campaign and it's not that intuitive for beginners. Hmm ... my level 5 mage against that level 2 troll. Should beat the easy! Splat.

I'd rather that a level does what it says on the tin, be it level 3 as he is or souped up to a real level 5.
I actually agree, and have made exactly that argument in the past, but the fact is that Delfador is level 5 for flavor, and is not intended to be a level 5 in power. And I suspect the campaign maintainers would much rather just make him a level 3 than make him a true level 5.
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by irrevenant »

Chris NS wrote:What I'm not too convinced with is being level 5 for "flavour". You can argue all day about flavour, but it's a novice campaign and it's not that intuitive for beginners. Hmm ... my level 5 mage against that level 2 troll. Should beat the easy! Splat.
I was thinking the same thing (as apparently was Turin).

It's largely a moot point with Delfador, since the main thing about level is the XP you get for killing them - and Delfador's death brings the game to a halt anyway. But it's a bad precedent to set, IMO.

Yes, it's also a precedent to have a unit deteriorate but it's a more reasonable way to handle it. As Chris pointed out, level = utility everywhere else in Wesnoth. EAB (Exceptions Are Bad :)).
Noyga wrote:Since he's an unique hero his level isn't really meaning full (as it's high enough not to be affected by leadership in HttT), he could be level 50 it won't alter much the gameplay (the only effect is the AI would probably find it's a more valuable target, which wouldn't affect much most scenarios).
Killing Delfador brings the campaign to a halt, but fighting him doesn't. Every unit that attacks him gets 5xp for the effort.

Ultimately you're right though - the gameplay effect of him being Level 5 is fairly small. The main concern is consistency and intuitiveness of play, not gameplay.
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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by peet »

irrevenant wrote:Yes, it's also a precedent to have a unit deteriorate but it's a more reasonable way to handle it. As Chris pointed out, level = utility everywhere else in Wesnoth. EAB (Exceptions Are Bad :)).
I'm not sure that an exception for Delfador is especially bad, since he is a unique unit, a "hero" character.

It makes sense him being level 5 on the grounds that he was once a Great Mage, and has since gotten older. Characters in Wesnoth never go down in level.

Does Delfador still have the 'intelligent' trait? He did last time I played HttT.

Either way I don't think Delfador should take 150 to level if this proposed mod is used. However, it would be important for Delfador himself to explain what is happening and thus it would be valuable instruction-wise. As long as he does so there is no need to worry about players getting confused.

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Re: Decrease Delfador's power over the course of HttT

Post by irrevenant »

TrashMan wrote:Why not just set him to level like other LVL5 units?
Have him start with a little less DMG and have it scale up normally
Because Delfador is not meant to be the focus of the campaign. Since Konrad and the other units level up, they are the focus. Delfador is more of a 'shepherd'.

peet wrote:I'm not sure that an exception for Delfador is especially bad, since he is a unique unit, a "hero" character.
It makes sense him being level 5 on the grounds that he was once a Great Mage, and has since gotten older. Characters in Wesnoth never go down in level.
This pretty much sums up the point of contention: Does level represent utility or does it represent seniority? The first camp think Delfador should be level lower 'cos he's weaker than a L5 should be, The latter think he should be an L5 'cos he's more experienced than an L4.

Delfador has gone backwards - the question is how that should best be represented in the Wesnoth system.

Aside: This debate actually mirrors the difference between GURPS 3rd Edition (I'm not familiar with 4e) and Champions (HERO system).

In HERO, points strictly measure utility while in GURPS they measure effort. So, for example, a medical skill of X will always cost you Y. But in GURPS, the cost in points of medical skill X will be dramatically higher if you have a low intelligence. Why? To demonstrate the fact that it was a lot harder to achieve under those circumstances.

IMO, Wesnoth is probably more like HERO (which conversely feels more like a miniatures wargame than GURPS). It's a high-level tactical game, not a low-level game of individual character.
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