Speed scaling

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Speed scaling

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

I think a troll should take the same amount of (real) time to move 5 hexes as a Gryphon Rider takes to move 9 hexes. Also I think units with charge attacks shuld move twice as fast when attacking.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Circon
Posts: 1200
Joined: November 17th, 2003, 4:26 am
Location: Right behind Gwiti, coding

Post by Circon »

*blinks*
*blinks again*
Uh, what? Trolls move 5 hexes/turn and Gryphon riders move 9 hexes/turn. They both take one turn. What are you asking about?
*drinks !oCCW*
Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by Dave »

Circon wrote:*blinks*
*blinks again*
Uh, what? Trolls move 5 hexes/turn and Gryphon riders move 9 hexes/turn. They both take one turn. What are you asking about?
*drinks !oCCW*
I think he means that at least in non-accelerated mode, the time it takes for the unit movement animation to take place should be proportional to the unit's speed.

I've thought of this before, and think it's a reasonable idea, although would be kinda difficult to do nicely as well as keep things running at a reasonable pace and not make everyone want to use accelerated mode.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

*Bringing this up again*
Dave wrote:I think he means that at least in non-accelerated mode, the time it takes for the unit movement animation to take place should be proportional to the unit's speed.

I've thought of this before, and think it's a reasonable idea, although would be kinda difficult to do nicely as well as keep things running at a reasonable pace and not make everyone want to use accelerated mode.

David
I'm not sure you're thinking of the same thing I am.... If every unit takes, say, 1 second to go however far it can, then why should everyone want to use accelerated mode?

For instance, a Troll can go five hexes a turn. It would take 1/5 of a second to move into grassland, 2/5 to enter mountains, etc. On the other hand, a Gryphon Rider would take 1/9 of a second to go through any terrain. (Or 1/10 if it was Quick.)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Darth Fool
Retired Developer
Posts: 2633
Joined: March 22nd, 2004, 11:22 pm
Location: An Earl's Roadstead

Post by Darth Fool »

I think this is a good idea since it fits the principle that in-game effects should have a noticable visible effect so that non-expert players (and even some experts) can learn how the rules work in a more intuitive fashion.
Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

Dave wrote:I think he means that at least in non-accelerated mode, the time it takes for the unit movement animation to take place should be proportional to the unit's speed.

I've thought of this before, and think it's a reasonable idea, although would be kinda difficult to do nicely as well as keep things running at a reasonable pace and not make everyone want to use accelerated mode.

David
From Wose to Gryphon Rider, that's only three times as fast. I think it would work out well.
Elvish Pillager wrote:*Bringing this up again*

I'm not sure you're thinking of the same thing I am.... If every unit takes, say, 1 second to go however far it can, then why should everyone want to use accelerated mode?

For instance, a Troll can go five hexes a turn. It would take 1/5 of a second to move into grassland, 2/5 to enter mountains, etc. On the other hand, a Gryphon Rider would take 1/9 of a second to go through any terrain. (Or 1/10 if it was Quick.)
Actually, as it is currently, using fast units makes you want to turn on Accelerated Speed because it takes so long for them to move. This proposal would help that.
Darth Fool wrote:I think this is a good idea since it fits the principle that in-game effects should have a noticable visible effect so that non-expert players (and even some experts) can learn how the rules work in a more intuitive fashion.
Yes, I agree!
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Invisible Philosopher wrote:Actually, as it is currently, using fast units makes you want to turn on Accelerated Speed because it takes so long for them to move. This proposal would help that.
Now that I think about it, this is exactly the reason I use Accelerated Speed currently!

Fast units should not be slower than slow units, anyway.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
quartex
Inactive Developer
Posts: 2258
Joined: December 22nd, 2003, 4:17 am
Location: Boston, MA

Post by quartex »

You mean that a unit that can move 9 hexes in a turn shouldn't take longer to move than a unit that can move 4 hexes in a turn.

Or all units should take X seconds to complete their move, thus a unit moveing 9 hexes would move a lot faster than a unit moving 4 hexes.

The resulting animation would be quicker for faster units and be more "realistic" but I could see it being difficult for some players to see exactly where the units are moving, when fast units move so quickly.

I think people understand that this isn't a real-time game, so it's okay that movement animations for all units are the same speed.
Invisible Philosopher
Posts: 873
Joined: July 4th, 2004, 9:14 pm
Location: My imagination
Contact:

Post by Invisible Philosopher »

I just thought of something - would [move_unit_fake] be affected too? If so, the Galleon will need a reasonable number of moves...
Play a Silver Mage in the Wesvoid campaign.
User avatar
Elvish_Pillager
Posts: 8129
Joined: May 28th, 2004, 10:21 am
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

quartex wrote:I think people understand that this isn't a real-time game, so it's okay that movement animations for all units are the same speed.
Elvish Pillager wrote:
Invisible Philosopher wrote:Actually, as it is currently, using fast units makes you want to turn on Accelerated Speed because it takes so long for them to move. This proposal would help that.
...this is exactly the reason I use Accelerated Speed currently!
It isn't okay, IMNHO.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Dacyn
Posts: 1855
Joined: May 1st, 2004, 9:34 am
Location: Texas

Post by Dacyn »

Invisible Philosopher wrote:I just thought of something - would [move_unit_fake] be affected too? If so, the Galleon will need a reasonable number of moves...
maybe all [move_unit_fake] tags will take the same amount of time....
User avatar
Eleazar
Retired Terrain Art Director
Posts: 2481
Joined: July 16th, 2004, 1:47 am
Location: US Midwest
Contact:

Post by Eleazar »

I think this idea would be beneficial in the game.
weather it worth coding or not, i can't say..
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
-> What i might be working on
Attempting Lucidity
autolycus
Posts: 481
Joined: July 5th, 2004, 2:58 am
Location: 1º16'N, 103º51'E
Contact:

Post by autolycus »

I think this isn't a good idea. The movement properties of a unit in a wargame are best represented by the number of hexes they move in a turn - and that's all. Making them appear to move faster or slower is just plain confusing because not all people perceive speed visually the same way. In contrast, everyone can count hexes and come up with the same number.

I agree that we do try to make what is seen correspond with game mechanics. But so far, what we have done is binary: hit/no hit, aura/no aura moved/not moved etc. Fast/slow in this case will not be binary but multi-value and not only that, different from machine to machine. How would you tell that a unit with move 9 is slower than a unit with move 10 on a fast machine? OTOH, looking at the unit info and actually moving the unit or looking at its movement radius (lighted squares) would give you better information.

Elaboration: according to the tabled proposal so far, units with move 9 on non-slowing terrain would move say 1 hex in 0.111 seconds while units with move 10 would move say 1 hex in 0.1 second. This difference is not easy to perceive. Yes, move 10 vs move 4 would give 0.1 vs 0.25, which is obvious, but move 9 vs move 4 gives 0.111 vs 0.25 and again while the fast unit is obviously faster than the slow unit, the two fast units are not so easy to compare. In effect, you'd be showing that a fast unit is a fast unit and a slow one is a slow one, without helping the user much.

It would be more useful to show leadership aura or healing aura on screen so that a player can see at a glance which units have this (yes/no property). It is not possible to tell speed at a glance using the tabled proposal unless you actually MOVE the unit first, AND are pretty good at judging relative time in a consistent way.
as kingfishers catch fire
so dragonflies draw flame
-GMH
Dacyn
Posts: 1855
Joined: May 1st, 2004, 9:34 am
Location: Texas

Post by Dacyn »

autolycus wrote:I think this isn't a good idea. The movement properties of a unit in a wargame are best represented by the number of hexes they move in a turn - and that's all.
I concur. They don't actually take any less "time" to move per hex in-game; why should we create a fake attribute?

although preventing players from switching to accelerated mode might be a good reason, I'm still not sure about this. Why not just make non-accelerated mode be faster than it is now?
Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by Dave »

I do kinda like this idea, and am probably going to implement at least a test implementation.

The aim of the idea isn't to convey to the user such subtle differences as 9 moves vs 10 moves, but rather give them a general idea of the movement speed of different units. It is used in combination with the existing methods of communicating movement speed.

Also, what I think is far more important than conveying the different movement rates of different units is conveying the different costs units pay to cross different terrain.

Players will start to notice that their human units take twice as long in the forest portion of their movement, for instance.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Post Reply