Why do Undead have submerge when Merfolk don't?

[Chris NS]

Short answer: mermen would be insanely overpowered with submerge, hence a reason is found why they can't.

[Darker_Dreams]

Short answer: mermen would be insanely overpowered with submerge, hence a reason is found why they can't.

Submerge is that powerful?

[zookeeper]

Short answer: mermen would be insanely overpowered with submerge, hence a reason is found why they can't.

Submerge is that powerful?

On a unit capable of actually moving speedily in water, maybe. For skeletons it's useless mostly because you'll be moving 1 hex per turn. Your average merman moves six times faster.

[AI]

so, to translate: is ambush that power? how about nightstalk?

[Weeksy]

nightstalk is incredibly powerful. Ambush isn't as powerful, because lots of units move onto forests. If mermen had submerge, it would really change the balance on maps like hornshark island, where there is lots of deep water on the edges, and few land units are going to be moving around there.

[irrevenant]

Alternate tack: How about making submerge a special ability only for a special L2 branch of mermen? (like the entangler/netcaster?)

Unfortunately, I suspect this just draws attention to the issue. ie. it'll probably get more people asking "how come all the mermen don't have this?".

[Aethaeryn]

nightstalk is incredibly powerful. Ambush isn't as powerful, because lots of units move onto forests. If mermen had submerge, it would really change the balance on maps like hornshark island, where there is lots of deep water on the edges, and few land units are going to be moving around there.

I agree, and shouldn't water units be able to see other water units, submerged or not? This would then create more complication as obviously a submerged water unit would be able to see the submerged enemy water unit three hexes away. At least by the same type of "realism" argument as water units being able to submerge in the first place.

Why do a significant number of undead (skele's and Liches) have Submerge, while not one unit in the only legitimately aquatic race in the game don't have a single unit with it?

One question I get from this is why do Walking Corpses not have submerge? They too can walk through deep water really slowly, similar to skeletons, and I don't think you'd be able to see them unless they floated? Submerge is a rarely-used ability for land units that I don't see how this could unbalance WCs.

I've only used submerge a few times and that was merely to walk through deep water in non-default maps, not to hide a unit. It's less useful to use as a trap than ambush because skeletons have their lowest, and not highest, defense in deep water. Simply change WC defense in deep water from 20% to 10% to be more like skeletons and submerge won't be overpowering.

[AI]

skeletons are just bones. Anything that has actual flesh is likely to float, if not at the surface, they'll be buoyant 10 meters lower.

[Aethaeryn]

If they float, then, why can't their deep water defense be lowered to 10% like the skeletons instead of remaining at 20%? I'd like to see them float and fight effectively.

[Simons Mith]

It would be nice (but an interesting programming challenge) if submerge could be made into an ambush ability that worked against

1) units without submerge
and
2) units not in water

So submerge would work against *all* units not in water hexes, but only against *some* units occupying water hexes.

That would largely cancel out the ability's effects on a water-based map, for example, even when both sides had it.

The problem from a programming point of view would be handling an ambush ability that only works against some units. I think that would be doable, though. For example, a merman in water would spot another merman in water not when he entered the latter's zone of control, but from a distance of several hexes away. You'd then get an 'enemy spotted' interrupt, code for which we already have for fog and shroud, and after that you could continue your turn.

[anakayub]

For which the problem arises for factions without water units, e.g. drakes, knalgans.

[Weeksy]

It's hard to see see things in water when they're very far away (when you're under water as well), and as HAPMA, there is no way you would be able to see other submerged units.

[Darker_Dreams]

Alternate tack: How about making submerge a special ability only for a special L2 branch of mermen? (like the entangler/netcaster?)

Unfortunately, I suspect this just draws attention to the issue. ie. it'll probably get more people asking "how come all the mermen don't have this?".

That sounds to me like; "If we ignore the situation no one will notice." To which the obvious counter argument is "I noticed."

For which the problem arises for factions without water units, e.g. drakes, knalgans.

Both of which have flying units, which substitute occasional stealth/stealth denial with all-terrian utility.

nightstalk is incredibly powerful. Ambush isn't as powerful, because lots of units move onto forests. If mermen had submerge, it would really change the balance on maps like hornshark island, where there is lots of deep water on the edges, and few land units are going to be moving around there.

I agree, and shouldn't water units be able to see other water units, submerged or not? This would then create more complication as obviously a submerged water unit would be able to see the submerged enemy water unit three hexes away. At least by the same type of "realism" argument as water units being able to submerge in the first place.

Make a new ability "aquatic" which packages Submerge and a submerge-counter together? Unless I missed something, it would really only applies to mermen, as even nagas (snakes) are, at best, amphibious vs aquatic.

Why do a significant number of undead (skele's and Liches) have Submerge, while not one unit in the only legitimately aquatic race in the game don't have a single unit with it?

One question I get from this is why do Walking Corpses not have submerge? They too can walk through deep water really slowly, similar to skeletons, and I don't think you'd be able to see them unless they floated? Submerge is a rarely-used ability for land units that I don't see how this could unbalance WCs.

Gases from rotting flesh are trapped internaly and cause bloat/floating.

I've only used submerge a few times and that was merely to walk through deep water in non-default maps, not to hide a unit. It's less useful to use as a trap than ambush because skeletons have their lowest, and not highest, defense in deep water. Simply change WC defense in deep water from 20% to 10% to be more like skeletons and submerge won't be overpowering.

Beyond which, forest may be adjacent to another unit, surprising them. How often does a skele get to attack another unit from being submerged?

[anakayub]

Both of which have flying units, which substitute occasional stealth/stealth denial with all-terrian utility.

But griffons are expensive, drakes are very vulnerable above water (and inherently expensive). I don't want to lose units simply because I couldn't see submerged merman fighters at day...

The mere fact that you can't see them is an insanely powerful ability and can make maps like Weldyn Channel less dynamic for such players. Woses are compensated by being slow. Elvish rangers are compensated by being weaker in attack than the marksman. And both are easier to guess their location (forests are always discontinuous in an average of 1-3 tile patches if I remember correctly).

I'd rather not see submerge for such units at all in the current state of balance. If they are to be made available, such units should be nerfed a bit, and make it only possible as higher level upgrades. You can't just increase flying unit stats to compensate as that'll affect land battle balance.

[Kens_Mom]

A better solution (balance-wise) would be to simply remove submerge from the Skeletons.

Though personally, I don't mind how things are right now.