Orc Improvements

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Grand Marshal Aditya
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Orc Improvements

Post by Grand Marshal Aditya »

I have made a new one because I am locked out of the other discussions.

Anyway, I think the Orcs should be able to build the Orcish Leader/Ruler/Sovereign.

That unit is cool and gives a new leadership. Plus! it doesn't throw off the balance, just adds options...

That is all I think is necessary with the Orcs. They are my favorite race by far and I think their higher level units are pretty nasty though the options are sorely limited...

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Stilgar
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Re: Orc Improvements

Post by Stilgar »

Grand Marshal Aditya wrote:Plus! it doesn't throw off the balance, just adds options...
Please explain.

I could maybe see this happening as a leader choice rather than a recruit, but I doubt that'll happen either.
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Kestenvarn
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Post by Kestenvarn »

This belongs in the Ideas forum.
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cool evil
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Post by cool evil »

I think the orcs are good as they are right now, they have pretty good melee stats and are very cheap to recruit, just overwhelming your enemy is enough to win a battle with orcs. If dozens of lvl 0 goblins circle around a lvl 3 Sovereign, they can deal 75% more damage, thats a 7-3 attack for a goblin, and that's only in the dusk/dawn, in the night, they hit 8-3(or is it 9-3? i'm not sure if it's round up or down). That's a very good attack even for a lvl 1.

The orcs impressive numbers combined with superior leadership will be almost unbeatable as all you have to do is recruit dozens of lvl 0 and 1s and get a few lvl 2/3 leader to lead them, the enemy have to recruit and spend twice as much money to equal the power that the orcs have.

Out of the 6 factions only half of them has leadership units, and all of them are either lawful or neutral.

Quote from wesnoth wiki
They are violent, quick-tempered, and belligerent
Orcs are not so organized compared to most other races. So there is no need for a leader who can't best all of his followers(the orcs values brawn somewhat over brain), the orcish Sovereign is not the most powerful fighter in his race, so the warlord take over the role of banding the orcs, not leading them to fight, but rather fight alongside his fellow orcs.

This would not make the orcish faction balanced, however, if we make the orcish faction a bit weaker, say, cut off a few damages and HP. Then we can fit a leader in there to compensate.
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Iris
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Re: Orc Improvements

Post by Iris »

Grand Marshal Aditya wrote:I have made a new one because I am locked out of the other discussions.
Um. Strange, you have only two posts and none of them are related to the topic. I guess I misunderstood something.

What I have always wondered is why the Warlord doesn't get leadership. I am not in favour of adding the Leader advancement tree as a natural faction element, but I think it could be good if the Warlord had leadership. Obviously, decreasing Warrior's attack damage in consequence. ;)
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

I imagine Orcish leadership to work differently than it might in Human in Elfish armies. Humans and Elves, or even Drakes, are probably leading by example and direction, while I imagine Orcish leaders as instilling fear, the grunts fearing the lash of their master's whips more than the opposing army.

Think of the leadership styles of King Leonidas vs. Xerxes, to give a pop reference.

Heh, I therefore think it would be cool to have the Orcish Leader tree crack a whip for their leadership animation.
Shiver
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Post by Shiver »

I'm not sure about giving the orcs leadership, but I am completely in favor of giving the orcs more level 2 and 3 options. The loyalists and elves get so many fun choices it's ridiculous. I would like to see other races have a wider selection of level 2s and 3s, particularly orcs. Here's one idea:

Troll Demolisher
Level 3
Advances from Troll Rocklobber
HP: 58
XP: 100
Regenerates
-----
Melee - "Fist" 12-2 Impact
Ranged - "Sling" 30-1 Impact
-----
Same resistances and defense as Rocklobber.
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Iris
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Post by Iris »

I'd like it if it was an orcish unit, however.
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

In short : No.

If you compare the stats of the Orcish Ruler and the Orcish Warrior, you'll probably see that the Orcish Leader line is not balanced to be usable as is as a Leader for the faction (and that's why the EE ones have toned down stats).
Also having these units recruitable will make the Goblin Rousers useless, which IMHO is not a good idea.
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Shiver
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Post by Shiver »

Shadow Master wrote:I'd like it if it was an orcish unit, however.
A level 2 variant of the Orcish Grunt that uses berserk might work okay. Lemme give this another try:


Orcish Marauder
Level 2
Advances from Orcish Grunt
HP: 45
Moves: 6
XP:100
-----
Melee - "Sword" 8 - 3 Blade (+berserk)
-----
Same resistances and defense as a Grunt.


It's weaker than the Orcish Warrior, but it's also very good at knocking down mages, archers, footpads and the like. There's nothing I hate more than Knalgan footpads that dodge my pathetic two-swing grunts over and over, so I would actually use this unit a lot if given the choice.
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BuBu
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Post by BuBu »

I'm not sure about giving the orcs leadership, but I am completely in favor of giving the orcs more level 2 and 3 options. The loyalists and elves get so many fun choices it's ridiculous. I would like to see other races have a wider selection of level 2s and 3s, particularly orcs.
I think the same.

Why they remove the lv 2 of the goblins and lv 3 of the slayer (the one that has poison attack). This was in older versions of wesnoth.
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Post by Blarumyrran »

BuBu wrote:Why they remove the lv 2 of the goblins and lv 3 of the slayer (the one that has poison attack). This was in older versions of wesnoth.
You're a 2007 joiner and i can assure that there have been no lvl 3 orc assassins & lvl 2 gob spearmen in 2007 releases.
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cool evil
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Post by cool evil »

I'm sure there's no lvl 3 slayer in the older version(i played 0.9 before) nor there is lvl 2 goblins. Units don't advance for a reason, usually because it is already very advanced in it's class and can properly accomplish it's assigned task(goblins make a good fodder, and slayers make a very good posioner). Take the lancer for example, lots of people suggested there'd be a lvl 3 lancer, but no matter how it worked out, it is still unbalanced and would ruin the uniqueness of the game. Just think what fun is the game with every unit lvl 3 and have similar attack power and ability?
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Post by Weeksy »

I have proposed a level-up (with no level 3) from the orcish grunt that uses a whip to drive the enemy forwards, but it met mediocre results when it was proposed, so I never brought it to the forums. It might have leadership, but I was thinking it would have something different, like the Terror ability from EE, intimidating its own units (but not affecting their combat) and scaring the enemy (and causing -15% or more to their damage)...
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Stilgar
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Post by Stilgar »

Berserker Orc leveling off of the Grunt has been suggested before too, and I think the verdict was that berserk was for Dwarves only in mainline. *shrugs*
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