Over stepping my bounds

[waw]

Mods, users, hello. i'm Waw, you know me well. There has been an abundance of rude posts that supersede their powers, as this was does mine.


I feel that I should take it upon myself to remind ALL of you about the rules for this forum and for many of you... this means you have been just jerks, neglectful, bossy, etc.

Here you go:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... ules#47235

And for those of you that don't want to click the link:

The Ideas forum is for people to brainstorm ideas relating to Wesnoth. Any reasonable ideas related to Wesnoth, or any Wesnoth fork/branch/mod, etc may be posted in this forum.

The aim of this forum is brainstorming, not the critique of ideas. Replies to any thread may contain additional ideas, alternative ideas, or constructive criticism of ideas with alternatives.

Stating that one does not like an idea, or making general criticisms of ideas (including subtle mocking by posting ridiculous extensions to the idea in an attempted reductio ad absurdum), is not acceptable in this forum. Such posts may be deleted.

If an idea is posted that is similiar or identical to an idea in the 'frequently proposed ideas' thread, then a reply may be posted that states that the idea is in the FPI, however this reply must be courteous and still not make actual criticism of the idea. Also, the idea may still be further discussed if others want to.

People who post ideas here should not expect that their ideas will be implemented into the game. They are simply ideas which might be implemented by someone somewhere if the idea is liked, or the ideas might be refined or lead to other ideas.

If someone thinks they have refined an idea sufficiently and want to propose it to the developers, they may post a proposal in another appropriate forum. When a proposal is posted, it may be analyzed critically by other forum members.

David

Has there been an abuse of power? Or was it just a misunderstanding?[/b][/quote]

[Velensk]

At the end he told you to PM him if you had concerns if you have not done this you probably should have started this thread.

[zookeeper]

Yeah, I guess there's been plenty of violations of those rules.

On an unrelated note, we might want to update the rules a bit (as those are three years old and there's a lot more traffic here nowadays, etc etc).

[bert1]

I've broken them several times.

[waw]

We all have numerous times. Including me. Whether they get an official update or not, people have been breaking them. The Mods are to enforce them (rules that are). That doesn't seem to be happening.

And no, I didn't PM him Velensk because I'm not sure what you are talking about. If it is about the foafaq perhaps I should have and he would have opened it... but the same problem of people posting 'Don't do this blah blah" Would have been there. It isn't the mods faults that users abuse them. The mods aren't enforcing the old rules that us newbs (notice not n00bs) are using. They seem to be enforcing new ones that I can't find anywhere and it is leading to arguments all over the place.

Playtom left (perhaps he overreacted, that is regardless) users will do that. From what he posted regularly in things that weren't in off-topic, he posted good sound advice as far as I'm concerned.

I've counted 8 swear words in a variety of posts in just fifteen minutes. Nothing has been done about that when it does say elsewhere in the forum rules that swearing isn't allowed.

The mods are cracking down for people not 'putting up or shutting up' and have closed topics or have watched as people have been pushed around by topics abusing the rules. (Again, it isn't their fault, obviously there is an update in the rules).

So if these rules are no longer in use... Moderators, all three of you, what are the new rules that we can use?

Brainstorming- running through rough ideas, not doing work, just writing down things you like... later you narrow through this and start working on the next step

Idea- you got a good idea, you post it to see if there is any positive response. You SHOULD post it as if it were to be mainline... isn't that the goal of every idea? Or in some ways, since Mainline is MAIN every idea should be measured up to it, trying to meet its standard. So you post that it SHOULD be in Mainline... of course you aren't ASKING for it to be in Mainline

Response- people post their receptions of the idea, constructive criticisms and additional ideas, perhaps small changes

Outline- now you have a rough outline and can choose to start working on the idea... but why should your thread be closed? you clearly aren't done. There are trials and everything. If your idea thread is closed even though you are working on it, or people still have more to add... that just leaves another thread to be opened.

If a thread on water tiles was left open and somebody had a new idea, there they go. Less new threads.

Or even make a new thread, less for people to read to through to get at what's going on.

Clarification is a good thing. Let's get some of that and then perhaps arguments will subside a bit. What do you think?

[turin]

Waw - which would you prefer, for the developers to act as they currently do, often being harsh to ideas, but actually taking the time to read them and if there are any good ones trying to get them implemented, or for the developers to completely abandon the forums (as many of them have already done) as a completely worthless tool? Because those are the only two options. If the forums are going to be even somewhat useful then people's feelings are going to have to be hurt. If your skin is that thin, that's your problem not ours.


Incidentally, those rules are antiquated, they're from a time when there were a few dozen new posts a day rather than a few hundred.

Another thing to remember is that while there are some 'rules', they're very subjective and the judgement of whether or not you've broken them is up to the mods and the mods alone. The purpose of the rules isn't to be enforced, it's to give an idea of what the forums should be like - they're more of guidelines. So if the mods decide not to enforce some rules, or to enforce some rules that aren't written down anywhere, or just to act as they see fit without explaining their actions at all - that's their job.

[Iris]

The purpose of the rules isn't to be enforced, it's to give an idea of what the forums should be like - they're more of guidelines.

Huh? I could swear I *heard* that, rather than read.

[waw]

There is always a third option Turin.

The Devs can still use the forums and all, but they don't have to rip apart fledgling ideas. That just doesn't make sense and it doesn't seem to make any production.

As for the mods and their rules, if it is stated like that, and it is their job to decide what rules are used and what isn't... what stops them from abuse? Theoretically, can there be abuse?

I have nothing to do with Thin Skin, but this just isn't a productive environment it could be. Why not help each other more than be at each other's throats?

And as a last note for the rules and the mods, any chance of them updating the rules so people like myself doesn't get confused? It has happened with a number of people and I have 8 different pms from 8 different people stating how they like what I've said... they just won't post because they are afraid of bans or something.

I've been to one site with A MOD being worse than those here. That doesn't mean these are bad mods. there this mod latched onto anybody new and beat the living poop out of them, thrashing them about, until they left, just for amusement. He was reported left and right and the admin said 'ok ok, I'll deal with it' and nothin ever happened. I stay clear from sites with strong admin teams because I try to be on sites with intelligent members that don't cause trouble so mods aren't needed. Most sites I go to the admin team is capable.

[turin]

Theoretically, can there be abuse?

Not really, because the users here have no rights. The game is designed for the pleasure of the developers, not the players - if you enjoy the game, great, but that's not the primary goal. And the forums serve the developers not the players - you remain here at the pleasure of the developers. The non-developer mods here are here to enforce the will of the devs, nothing more. There can't be abuse in a system where there's nothing to abuse.

It sounds to me like what you want is to start an off-site forum run by people who are more interested in wasting time talking about what Wesnoth could in theory be like rather than talking about how to improve it as it currently is (the ways being, in essence, write more campaigns, make more art, and improve the code). Which is fine by me, I just wouldn't go to that forum.



(note that everything I've said in this thread is my personal opinion, not any fiat from on high, mainly because I'm too opinionated to trust myself to put on the developer hat and make solemn proclamations in threads like these. This post may be slightly exaggerated.)

[irrevenant]

At the end he told you to PM him if you had concerns if you have not done this you probably should have started this thread.

I consider this a separate topic: The other article is about adressing development of an uberFAQ, this one is about (the appearance of) people behaving inappropriately. Related, but different. Unlike the other one, this thread isn't actually an idea, but since it's about the Ideas forum this is probably the right place for it.

Waw,
If you are concerned about certain actions and behaviours in this forum and think they were inappropriate then certainly discuss those actions, but generalised personal attacks aren't helpful. "You have been just jerks, neglectful, bossy, etc." is pretty much universally unhelpful - it just gets people's backs up instead of resolving any issues.

Note to all: This is a potentially volatile topic - please think twice before you post anything. Keep it civil.

P.S. I can't post in depth on this topic just at the moment - I'll be back in about 3 hours and I'll comment further then.

[waw]

I see. But I don't know... I think you have exagerated my point a little. I don't really want to waist time, but talking about some things to do and could be added normally leads to new input and better ideas.

Brainstorming is just the start of a process.


But when you put it like that, and I have seen many posts from on high pertaining to that info, then ya, I understand and see.

[zookeeper]

I see. But I don't know... I think you have exagerated my point a little. I don't really want to waist time, but talking about some things to do and could be added normally leads to new input and better ideas.

The reason why developers aren't keen on that is because they've almost never gotten any good ideas from non-regulars on the forums, even when people have brainstormed freely about who knows how many subjects. Just to shed some light on why newbie brainstorming isn't seen as especially interesting by the devs.

[Ken_Oh]

Waw - which would you prefer, for the developers to act as they currently do, often being harsh to ideas, but actually taking the time to read them and if there are any good ones trying to get them implemented, or for the developers to completely abandon the forums (as many of them have already done) as a completely worthless tool?

I'm not sure why more devs haven't done this. This forum, by definition, is a waste of time from a core dev standpoint, since it's mainly just a catch for people who are inevitably going to post about their l33t n3w idea somewhere.

Grant, I've found and used plenty of great ideas but I only really post something here anymore if I'm at least halfway willing to put effort in to see it through.

That said, we've been through this before, and I don't see it being as critical now as it was earlier. Or, maybe I haven't read everything.

[waw]

I see, but can't the devs just ignore a topic or two and let people brainstorm there? They don't HAVE to go in and read everything. I mean, couldn't non-devs work on ideas and things without having the devs disagree or get upset?

This isn't like an actual room where you have to sit and listen to people talk and state their ideas. YOU CAN ignore threads and let people continue their discussions. Or did I miss that?

Sorry Irrevenant about my 'jerks etc', that was to draw attention into the topic. I was surprised I wasn't chopped on on the first post.

I read several rules about this being 'dev friendly' and not 'user friendly'. I suppose since the 'devs do the work' that makes perfect sense. But... how does one become a dev? I would assume if you worked hard and long enough and were productive enough, the slot would open up for you, but I don't see that happening. Perhaps they don't want their numbers to grow.

Am I the only one that actually wants to see this game become a big hit played by millions if not more? Ya, its non-commercial so I suppose there isn't a reason for it becoming big, but seriously, why not, you know?

[Iris]

Waw might apologize for calling you jerks, but...

I won't apologize for this:

You bunch of jerks, why aren't you more helpful?

This settles it then. I really thank God I didn't have to request help from any of you when I joined. Of course, this doesn't apply to you all, but to particular people which I won't name.

We all do our job, it is our mission in the world. Now, does this deserve a lock, or not?