Reducing the Power of 3rd level units

[Dacyn]

If we were talking about the overall value of units, then yes, of course. But we're talking simply about how much damage units do, and how many hitpoints they have.

OK, what I meant was, why should HP and damage be considered valid data sets?
And yes, in order to get valid data sets you would have to consider resistance, chance to be hit, abilities, etc.
(but not movement, if we are not trying to find how fast the units go. And getting valid data for damage is easier, because resistance and defense do not need to be considered. But it is also harder because attack specialties should be considered.)

[Dave]

If we were talking about the overall value of units, then yes, of course. But we're talking simply about how much damage units do, and how many hitpoints they have.

OK, what I meant was, why should HP and damage be considered valid data sets?
And yes, in order to get valid data sets you would have to consider resistance, chance to be hit, abilities, etc.

Well, chance to hit and resistance rarely change from level to level, so they can be discounted in a cross-level comparison. There's really only a few cases (Elvish Scout for chance to hit in villages, Dwarves for resistance), and the changes for those cases are very minor.

Units also rarely acquire a new ability that improves their chance to hit (marksman, magical) when they level up. Elvish Archer -> Marksman is the only case I can even think of. However even then, this would only increase the disparity between lower and higher level units anyway.

David

[Dacyn]

Well, chance to hit and resistance rarely change from level to level, so they can be discounted in a cross-level comparison. There's really only a few cases (Elvish Scout for chance to hit in villages, Dwarves for resistance), and the changes for those cases are very minor.

In a single-unit cross-level comparison, they can be discounted. But for comparing the average power of lvl 3 vs. lvl 2, it might be relevant.

Units also rarely acquire a new ability that improves their chance to hit (marksman, magical) when they level up.

this is irrelevant, as some units acquire abilities that improve other aspects of their attack (Rogue->Assassin).
(and no, this isn't relevant to the discussion).

[Dave]

Well, chance to hit and resistance rarely change from level to level, so they can be discounted in a cross-level comparison. There's really only a few cases (Elvish Scout for chance to hit in villages, Dwarves for resistance), and the changes for those cases are very minor.

In a single-unit cross-level comparison, they can be discounted. But for comparing the average power of lvl 3 vs. lvl 2, it might be relevant.

I don't think so, since even units that do improve resistance only get a ~10% improvement, or only improve against a few kinds of attacks, or have improvements that are almost always irrelevant (like Paladin and Mage of Light having better resistance vs holy).

Even the Dwarvish Fighter -> Steelclad upgrade, which has the most resistance changes afaik only improves resistance by ~10%, which would be around equivalent to a 10% hp upgrade. Considering few upgrades have any changes at all, it's doubtful the differences would account for more than around 1 or 2%.

David

[turin]

Dave: Resistance is not what is important. Gaining specialties like poison are what is important. For example, you wouldn't realize how much better an assassin's ranged is over a rogue's without knowing the assassin has poisons.

[Dacyn]

this was not what I was referring to. What I meant is that the HP difference between Rogue vs. Assassin should be counted for more than the difference between Troll vs. Troll Warrior. As I said, this is only relevant when considering the average.

[Dave]

this was not what I was referring to. What I meant is that the HP difference between Rogue vs. Assassin should be counted for more than the difference between Troll vs. Troll Warrior. As I said, this is only relevant when considering the average.

Not necessarily, because a rogue has much less resistance, and so takes more damage when hit.

True, resistances and chance to hit might vary, but calculating that is very difficult, and these statistics are meant to give us a basic idea, not be the absolutely defining factor.

As you can see, almost all units gain in attack power more than in hitpoints, whether elusive, resistant, or neither.

David

[Darth Fool]

Frankly I think that 3rd level units are too powerful. In my mind the question revolves around two issues: First, how many level 1 units attacking the unit does it take to kill it assuming it starts at full health? If the answer is more than 6(ie it is surrounded) it is too resilient (ie has too much hp or too powerful of counter attack). Second, how many of the level-1 unit-types can the unit attack expecting to kill the level 1 unit without receiving any damage? This should be a small number, otherwise the level 3 unit is too powerful. For those who wish to know which level-1 units, I would say that the level 1 units could either be an average or optimally chosen to attack/defend against the level 3 unit.

[AT]

I don't think its more than 6, pretty much ever. And it depends, too. My LVL 3 Shock trooper should be able to crush little elvish fighers for a long time...

[miyo]

It has been done,

http://changelog.wesnoth.org

- Miyo

[Sangel]

• * Ancient Wose: increased cost
  * Ancient Lich: reduced hitpoints, reduced ranged damage
  * Arch Mage: reduced hitpoints, reduced ranged damage
  * Battle Princess: reduced melee damage
  * Death Knight: reduced melee damage
  * Demilich: reduced ranged damage
  * Dwarvish Berserker: reduced cost
  * Dwarvish Lord: reduced melee damage
  * Dwarvish Steelclad: increased cost
  * Elder Mage: reduced hitpoints, increased cost
  * Elvish Avenger: reduced number of melee attacks
  * Elvish Champion: reduced melee damage
  * Elvish Lord: reduced melee damage
  * Goblin Direwolver: increased melee damage, reduced number of melee attacks
  * Great Mage: reduced melee damage, reduced ranged damage
  * Halbardier: reduced melee damages
  * Heavy Infantry: reduced melee damage
  * Initiate: reduced ranged damage
  * Iron Mauler: reduced melee damage
  * Lord: reduced melee damage
  * Mage of Light: reduced ranged damage
  * Master Bowman: reduced ranged damage
  * Orcish Warlord: reduced melee damage
  * Pikeman: reduced melee damage
  * Princess: reduced melee damage
  * Royal Guard: reduced melee damage
  * Shock Trooper: reduced melee damage
  * Spearman: reduced melee damage, reduced ranged damage
  * Wose: increased cost

The above list seems to include most of the "more powerful" 3rd level units, but there are some choices in there which I don't think are appropriate. The Spearman, for instance, is already fairly weak when compared to, say, an Elvish fighter, and they cost the same. It doesn't strike me as in need of a downgrade.

Similarly, the Iron Mauler was roughly on par with a Troll Warrior; now it is inferior. The Heavy Infantry progression didn't strike me as in need of modification (well... perhaps two damage off the Shock Trooper, but not the other two).

But otherwise, the above list seems quite good.[/list]

[Circon]

Hmmm, note you changed Gwiti's line EXCEPT the Deathmaster. I've been meaning to power them down for a while now, but I never got around to making up suitable numbers, so thanks, but... what's up?

[fmunoz]

Spearman, Pikeman and Halbaldier all got 1st strike skill. So even spearman losing 3 damage still more powerfull than before IMHO.
I changed Heavy Infantry branch a bit too, just less than 10% damage less... It's far easier to kill troll warriors than Iron maulers even now .
Death master is a 2nd level unit so I didnt look too much at him.. ok I'll check.
EDIT restores spearman damage to 7-3

[Dave]

Spearman, Pikeman and Halbaldier all got 1st strike skill. So even spearman losing 3 damage still more powerfull than before IMHO.
I changed Heavy Infantry branch a bit too, just less than 10% damage less... It's far easier to kill troll warriors than Iron maulers even now .
Death master is a 2nd level unit so I didnt look too much at him.. ok I'll check.

IMO the spearman's melee attack should be restored to 7-3, since its movement type is substantially worse than an elvish fighter's, and it needs this amount of damage to be competitive.

David

[AT]

I agree with Sangel, i think, but i'm willing to try it in the next version before complaining.