Great Mage suggestion

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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

I agree that resistances aren't the best option however I disagree that resistances are the "key" point of silver mage diffrentation. (teleport is)

My ideas for great mage AMLA are
2 movment cost max reduced move in some areas (leviation) EDIT: realised someone already suggested it
First Strike (prementation)
+2 melle damage (mystic augamentation)
Arcane version of fireball (agnastro) EDIT: less damage
+5% defence everywhere (Defencive magic)

And in the rare even of acheiving all of those (just think of the rediculas amount of xp that would be required)

1-3 Petrifying attack (Petrification)

I suppose the problem with that last one is what if you petrify someone you were supposed to kill and the senario dose not end, or if you block of the entrence or exit to somewhere you need to go or leave.
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Infinisearch
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Post by Infinisearch »

This might be overpowered but allow the Great Mage to defend against melee attacks with magic, except with 50% to 60% of normal damage (spellcasting under pressure), and potentially a reduced sucess rate. (60 instead of 70 percent) That would really make a greatmage standout from the rest of the magi in wesnoth.

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Infinisearch wrote:This might be overpowered but allow the Great Mage to defend against melee attacks with magic, except with 50% to 60% of normal damage (spellcasting under pressure), and potentially a reduced sucess rate. (60 instead of 70 percent) That would really make a greatmage standout from the rest of the magi in wesnoth.
Hmm. You could make a 'defensive shield' ability of some sort that only worked on defence. It would be a bit weaker than the ranged attack so he'd still respond to ranged attacks with his own.

That would indeed be funky.

It might make the great mage a bit too invulnerable though.
Velensk wrote:I agree that resistances aren't the best option however I disagree that resistances are the "key" point of silver mage diffrentation. (teleport is)
I said a key difference. Obviously teleport is also a key difference.
Last edited by irrevenant on July 6th, 2007, 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cuyo Quiz
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

Possible options, either to the unit or as AMLAs:

Enhanced Physical/Pierce Resistance: The guy is so good at the theurgy bit, he actually holds back arrows, thrusts, etc.

Melee Arcane Damage: Grand Mages are known for waving away most obstacles with a gust of power, and being reticent to do something as crude as beating something with a stick.

Extra Ranged Attack: Whatever the damage type, it could be seen as the mage invoking blizzards, a hail of arrows, or furious magical blades.

Quesiton, would it be possible to give an AMLA option when it reaches lvl4?. So you get the big mage, and immediatly choose a trademark extra.
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Laudimir
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Post by Laudimir »

Hmm, it seems to be that it might be a better idea to force AMLAs, like those mentioned above, to be required BEFORE becoming a great mage. The Great Mage could then have AMLAs that augment the abilities he/she learned when still a red mage and/or Arch Mage.

It could be that the AMLAs are set up to force you to choose certain AMLAs over others, if thats possible (that is, offering a group of abilties for each different AMLA, but not offering them again if not chosen). Another way, if it isn't possible to set up groups of restricted AMLAs would be to just give a choice of 2 AMLAs before advancing. This would allow for making mages more customizable and fun, imho.

Of course, if this can be done with mages...why not other unit types ;(

Perhaps there can also be a way to restrict the number of Arch Mages/Great mages that any army can have?

Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

Err... I may have misread your post but it seemed to me that you said that great mages ought to keep AMLAs gathered while as a red and arch mage.

This is imposible. AMLAs (After MAX lvl advancements) olny happen when you get to the end of a lvl tree and then go up another lvl except there is no higher lvl to go to so instead you get a minor bonus. For most people it is +3 max hp, but there is some others who act diffrently.
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Post by Elvish_Star »

Velensk wrote:
My ideas for great mage AMLA are
2 movment cost max reduced move in some areas (leviation) EDIT: realised someone already suggested it
I would say no levitation, no reduced movement cost, no walking on water and , to sum it all, no movement boost. This might be a gamebreaker on many campigns, an d I don't want a scenario that basically requires (or is trivialized by having) 2 cavern/mountain/waterwalking archmages

Think of all the cavern scenarios of HttT with achmages running at 2 mp/square

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Post by deoxy »

Velensk wrote:Err... I may have misread your post but it seemed to me that you said that great mages ought to keep AMLAs gathered while as a red and arch mage.

This is imposible. AMLAs (After MAX lvl advancements) olny happen when you get to the end of a lvl tree and then go up another lvl except there is no higher lvl to go to so instead you get a minor bonus. For most people it is +3 max hp, but there is some others who act diffrently.
That is simply not true. I've built units that allow AMLAs before MAX level.

There's actually a switch in the AMLA code ("strict_leveling", or something like that) which, when set to false, allows AMLAs to be chosen instead of leveling.

In fact, requiring at least one AMLA before allowing a mage to progress is doable with WML right now (as I understand it - haven't done this part myself), using variations, and the AMLAs in question would change the mage to the variation that DOES allow progression.
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

regaurdless of wether it is possible or not, the way he was talking about it implied some other sort of thing, and unless you want red mages and arch mages to get AMLAs rather/in addition to advancing the way he was talking about it made no sense.

By the way archamages do walk around in caves for 2 mp (or at least I thought humans did) elves take 3 mp. Though I can still see why you object to it and it is a valid point.
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Post by kcits »

I apologize for being a noob, but i thought that i would thow my 2 cents... Ever since I was a kid, playing Final Fantasy on nintendo and playing D&D with my friends I have always liked mages, but what they had in a great strngth of magic they lacked the strength in body... I always got the impression that a mages magic was powerful, but their body was weak. Mages are cretaures that spend their time reading books, practicing spells, cooped up in a tower for days on end and not seing the sun for days. They didn't go outside and forge metal or cut braches for arrows. They are strong menatlly but weak physically. So, my 2 cents is that they should have higher magical damage and lower hp and melee attacks have a higher chance to hit a mage... sorry if this was noobish... :)
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Konrad II
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Post by Konrad II »

So, my 2 cents is that they should have higher magical damage and lower hp and melee attacks have a higher chance to hit a mage... sorry if this was noobish...
I think that mages are frail enough. Also, why would this target the Great mage only and not the other mages? What you are saying should apply to all mages, and not only the Great Mage. And since this doesn't have to do with the particular Great Mage, then your suggestion doesn't answer to the poster's question/suggestion; unless your idea is to make only the great mage weaker to attacks etc.
Or since they are holding a watch anyway, how about a spell involving that and the word reflect?
What about a 'counterspell' attack? After using this attack, the enemy magic user can not cast anymore and is forced to use melee for his next attack. A little crazy, but well it's an idea; it's very powerful though... A bit too much :(
Last edited by Konrad II on July 7th, 2007, 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Laudimir
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Post by Laudimir »

Err... I may have misread your post but it seemed to me that you said that great mages ought to keep AMLAs gathered while as a red and arch mage.

This is imposible. AMLAs (After MAX lvl advancements) olny happen when you get to the end of a lvl tree and then go up another lvl except there is no higher lvl to go to so instead you get a minor bonus. For most people it is +3 max hp, but there is some others who act diffrently.
As Deoxy said, WML allows you to set a "switch" to force a player to acquire certain AMLAs before ALLOWING advancements. I don't think any mainline campaigns and units use them, though.

My main question about this is whether its possible to limit choices to groups. For instance, can we set up a forced AMLA before Advancement to require you to choose one of a set of powers (a fire attack, an ice attack or a lightning attack) for one AMLA, then the next AMLA force a completely different set of choices (say, levitation, magical focus, wpnry focus). Of course, there could be many others. But, each AMLA would require you to focus on only one thing, rather than always have the choice to cme back and get what you missed.
I apologize for being a noob, but i thought that i would thow my 2 cents... Ever since I was a kid, playing Final Fantasy on nintendo and playing D&D with my friends I have always liked mages, but what they had in a great strngth of magic they lacked the strength in body... I always got the impression that a mages magic was powerful, but their body was weak. Mages are cretaures that spend their time reading books, practicing spells, cooped up in a tower for days on end and not seing the sun for days. They didn't go outside and forge metal or cut braches for arrows. They are strong menatlly but weak physically. So, my 2 cents is that they should have higher magical damage and lower hp and melee attacks have a higher chance to hit a mage... sorry if this was noobish... Smile
Kcits, there are many many different types of mages. In the D&D universe (or multiverse :P), there were what were called Elvish Bladesingers. These are dual classes wizard/fighters that were able to completely master the use of a single weapon as a martial art, and master magic as well. On top of this, they were able to cast spells in combat AND defend themselves.

In 3rd edition D&D they have kits. Basically, you can pick up secondary classes as you go. So, a fighter/mage could ostensibly become a bladesinger with enough general skill and training. As could a rogue.

Then we have our wizard example, Gandalf (Although, we will ignore the fact that Gandalf is not, in fact, even human lol). Gandalf wields Glamdring in the Hobbit, and he is a wizard lol. There are many different types of way magic can be implemented, and prolly should be implemented. But, BFW isn't really an rpg ;)

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Post by kcits »

Laudimir wrote:Kcits, there are many many different types of mages. In the D&D universe (or multiverse :P), there were what were called Elvish Bladesingers. These are dual classes wizard/fighters that were able to completely master the use of a single weapon as a martial art, and master magic as well. On top of this, they were able to cast spells in combat AND defend themselves.

In 3rd edition D&D they have kits. Basically, you can pick up secondary classes as you go. So, a fighter/mage could ostensibly become a bladesinger with enough general skill and training. As could a rogue.

Then we have our wizard example, Gandalf (Although, we will ignore the fact that Gandalf is not, in fact, even human lol). Gandalf wields Glamdring in the Hobbit, and he is a wizard lol. There are many different types of way magic can be implemented, and prolly should be implemented. But, BFW isn't really an rpg ;)
That is true, but just a personal preferance I tended to keep the classes simple. There are drawbacks to that, but also some possitives. I might misunderstand the levels of mages but if the great mage is "great" then I think top/best so i think great power with weak body... but then again, maybe it should go through all mages, weaker body and stronger mind?
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Lorbi
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Post by Lorbi »

silver mage and white mages are "specialists" but the only can go to lvl 3

the great mage with his lvl4 ist the "normal" mage ... he just uses his magic to da maximum damage he can. this is ok so and it is good so. what you want is to overpower him.

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Post by Angry Andersen »

Lorbi wrote:silver mage and white mages are "specialists" but the only can go to lvl 3

the great mage with his lvl4 ist the "normal" mage ... he just uses his magic to da maximum damage he can. this is ok so and it is good so. what you want is to overpower him.
I also think the discussion is going a bit in the 'overpowering' direction. I started this topic with the oppinion, that any change must leave the balance of the game intact, and I still have this oppinion. What the Great Mage could need is a nice Gimmick, not an entirely new concept.

The AMLA-Idea is good IMHO: Instead of 3HPs the Mage gets some Gimmicks. Everyone else also gets AMLAs, so the GM does not become overpowered IF these AMLA options are well chosen.

So I think we should focus the discussion on finding some proper AMLA-options which are not too powerful, i.e. they should not make the unit completely invulnerable, incredibly fast but just add some variation.

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