Great Mage suggestion

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Angry Andersen
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Great Mage suggestion

Post by Angry Andersen »

I always have this feeling that the Great Mage is a bit too ordinary. He has mastered magic like no one else and turned himself into a fire shooting super-archer, but he has no tricks, nothing really unusual.

White Mages heal and illuminate, Silver Mages teleport (very cool ability, I love that one!), Elves learn to fly when they master magic. Great Mages still shoot fire as they did when they were lvl1, just a lot more of it (and they get some resistance to it).

This is not about the general balance of the unit. I just think that Great Mages should have some sort of gimmick to show off how these Guys have really mastered their field. Depending on the gimmick, some adjustments to hp/damage or whatever might of course be appropriate.

Here are some suggestions:
a) ranged firststrike (attacking him ranged is stupid anyway)
b) both fire and cold attacks of equal strength (poor drakes!)
c) unusual resistance to arcane damage (+80, he knows all the defense spells)
d) walks on water (a master of the elements!)
e) a 2nd ranged arcane attack with lower damage which drains
f) a melee fire attack (e.g. fiery sword)
...

What do you think?

nightcrawler
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Post by nightcrawler »

Your ideas are fun to consider, and the reasoning is sound, prima facie. However, gameplay must come first. Because gameplay is king, appealing to "X would be cool" normally isn't good enough to spur a change. For example, giving a great mage spectacular resistances removes one of the trade-offs of the Silver Mage.

But, it is fun to brainstorm possible improvements for the great mage, even if we haven't fully discussed whether such improvement fills a gameplay need. Also, remember that the great mage has a whopping 65 HP, which is pretty good for a mage (and most L3 units for that matter). You could consider that evidence of some kind of implicit defense.
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turin
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Post by turin »

ranged first-strike would make the unit appear more powerful without actually having much of an impact on gameplay at all... I vote for that one.
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Angry Andersen
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Post by Angry Andersen »

nightcrawler wrote:... Because gameplay is king, appealing to "X would be cool" normally isn't good enough to spur a change. For example, giving a great mage spectacular resistances removes one of the trade-offs of the Silver Mage.
I agree on these points, but coolness is also a part of gameplay, e.g. Goblin Pillagers are cool and that's why we all love them (not just because they are a well balanced and useful unit)!

There is nothing wrong (as far as I know) with the Great Mage in terms of game balance etc., so my idea is really only about the feeling/coolness/... of the unit.

Of course, such a change should not be allowed to unbalance the game and the difference to other units should be increased, not reduced (as you point out in respect to the Silver Mage).

That was, for example, my reason to propose ranged firststrike (maybe in exchange for a few HP), as most sane creatures wouldn't attack a lvl4 mage in ranged combat anyway. But it would be unique, as no other unit has this and at the same time show off how well these guys know their stuff!

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Post by PingPangQui »

I'm pretty much against multiple high resistances for reasons already pointed out. If you want that get a "Silver Mage".

The first strike option sounds OK for me. However, what about a magical melee attack instead? - Sth. like "fire fist" or "burning/dragon hand/claw"?
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Post by Baufo »

I can see the point of making the Great Mage more special and I agree with Túrin firststrike is probably the best option for the reasons mentioned.
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Noyga
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Re: Great Mage suggestion

Post by Noyga »

Angry Andersen wrote:I always have this feeling that the Great Mage is a bit too ordinary. He has mastered magic like no one else and turned himself into a fire shooting super-archer, but he has no tricks, nothing really unusual.

White Mages heal and illuminate, Silver Mages teleport (very cool ability, I love that one!), Elves learn to fly when they master magic. Great Mages still shoot fire as they did when they were lvl1, just a lot more of it (and they get some resistance to it).

This is not about the general balance of the unit. I just think that Great Mages should have some sort of gimmick to show off how these Guys have really mastered their field. Depending on the gimmick, some adjustments to hp/damage or whatever might of course be appropriate.
I don't have a problem with the Great mage. For me being that powerful is already a great ability.
Btw i wouldn't mind some additionnal skill if it fits the unit.
Angry Andersen wrote:Here are some suggestions:
a) ranged firststrike (attacking him ranged is stupid anyway)
This one sounds silly to me. It doesn't really makes sense (you cannot expect a human casting a spell to shoot faster than say... a elvish marksman).
It looks more like giving a special to the Great mage just for the sake of giving him an additional abitily. That's something i'd like to avoid.
Angry Andersen wrote:c) unusual resistance to arcane damage (+80, he knows all the defense spells)
No !
That makes more sense on the Silver Mage and the White mages (and they do currently work that way).
Angry Andersen wrote:d) walks on water (a master of the elements!)
I'm not sure it really makes sense on the Great Mage. Moreover, it will make them look like elvish mages :(
Angry Andersen wrote:b) both fire and cold attacks of equal strength (poor drakes!)
e) a 2nd ranged arcane attack with lower damage which drains
f) a melee fire attack (e.g. fiery sword)
Yes, giving the unit an additionnal spell (ie probably an attack) would be a nice idea.
Btw a simple cold or a drain attack would make the unit look like a dark mage, which the unit is not.

One other, more original idea of spell i have is a multiple attack (a flame wave in this case) : the unit attack the target, but also the two neighbour hexes (ie the two hexes that are both neigbour to the caster and is target (northwest and northeast if you attack north)). AFAIK this is not currently possible, but i'd like to implement something like this for hydras. As an optional drawback, it might also attack ally units (and wouldn't give xp in that case). Maybe this one is too much unKISS.

Yet another original ide for a spell : a freezing attack.
It would make moderate cold damage and stone the target for one turn.
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thissneppah
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Post by thissneppah »

If I could throw my idea in to this: give the Great Mage a second fire attack with low strikes but high(er) damage. Hopefully it will give the unit some more flexibility, coolness and make it seem like the Great Mage no longer only knows one spell. Failing that I think fire melee attack is the better option for reasons already mentioned. Also I’m against the Great Mage getting an arcane attack – it will make the White Mage branch a bit less special in my humble opinion.

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Post by Dave »

What I think is that Great Mages should gain access to a variety of AMLAs which have various effects.

These might include ranged first strike, levitation (max movement cost is 2), a moderately powerful cold attack etc.

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Iris
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Re: Great Mage suggestion

Post by Iris »

I agree with...
Angry Andersen wrote:f) a melee fire attack (e.g. fiery sword)
Partially. I like the idea of an special melee attack, but not fire, and it should be designed in such a way it doesn't overpower the mage, for example:

Magic staff: 8-2 special (magic), type (impact)

Like the elves and mermaids develop their faerie/naiad touch, the mage should develop an special melee attack; not powerful enough to be good for attacking other units, but effective enough to deal some minor damage in defense of enemy attacks.

EDIT: does anybody remember that Delfador fought against Garard's son using his staff?
Last edited by Iris on July 4th, 2007, 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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khamul
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Post by khamul »

How about an ability that gives every adjacent unit +20% fire resistance?
The Mage's mastery of fire has grown to the point that he can shield those near him from its effects.

Potential problems I can see with this are AI, and the fact that WML may not support it. It's not a huge bonus, but it would add flavour.

FWIW I second Noyga's objections to first strike, and I love Dave's ideas for interesting AMLAs - though ALMA experience would have to be carefully considered. If it takes 100 XP to pick up minimal bonus X, you're never really going to see them.

If this gets done, it'd be nice to have one or two of the more interesting ones given to Delfador (maybe toned down a bit), as a reflection of his former glory.
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irrevenant
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Re: Great Mage suggestion

Post by irrevenant »

Noyga wrote:
Angry Andersen wrote:Here are some suggestions:
a) ranged firststrike (attacking him ranged is stupid anyway)
This one sounds silly to me. It doesn't really makes sense (you cannot expect a human casting a spell to shoot faster than say... a elvish marksman).
It looks more like giving a special to the Great mage just for the sake of giving him an additional ability. That's something i'd like to avoid.
It could easily be explained a couple of ways:
(1) that his magically-enhanced senses are now so acute that it's impossible to get the drop on him
(2) that he has some sort of magical 'auto-defence' set up.

That said, I don't particularly like this option 'cos it's a bit plain.
Noyga wrote:
Angry Andersen wrote:b) both fire and cold attacks of equal strength (poor drakes!)
e) a 2nd ranged arcane attack with lower damage which drains
f) a melee fire attack (e.g. fiery sword)
Yes, giving the unit an additional spell (ie probably an attack) would be a nice idea.
Btw a simple cold or a drain attack would make the unit look like a dark mage, which the unit is not.
Additional spells would be my preferred option. How about a telekinetic strike for impact damage?
Noyga wrote:One other, more original idea of spell i have is a multiple attack (a flame wave in this case) : the unit attack the target, but also the two neighbour hexes (ie the two hexes that are both neigbour to the caster and is target (northwest and northeast if you attack north)). AFAIK this is not currently possible, but i'd like to implement something like this for hydras. As an optional drawback, it might also attack ally units (and wouldn't give xp in that case). Maybe this one is too much unKISS.
Heh. I suggested just such a 'fan' attack when I first joined the forum. I got a 'it'll never happen, it's too unbalanced!' reply, but if it's comparatively low damage and limited to the Great Mage it should be fine. Especially if it damages allied units too.

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Post by BuBu »

I think is better a little more resistence to fire and ice and maybe a weak ice attack (to this unit not be too much powerfull). 4x 16 in 70% is easy to some unit get dead.
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Post by Hyunjae »

:? I don't know if I'm raising a dead topic or something... but I'm a big fan of Great mages... (considering I have a loyal, resiliant one in the "heir to the throne" :P ) But I have a suggestion


Might be a bit hard to implement, but perhaps the Great mage's arcane fire can burn the enemy, periodically doing damage to them? (only like four damage for, if 8, might be too unbalanced :twisted: )

Or since they are holding a watch anyway, how about a spell involving that and the word reflect?

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

BuBu wrote:I think is better a little more resistence to fire and ice and maybe a weak ice attack (to this unit not be too much powerfull). 4x 16 in 70% is easy to some unit get dead.
I'm pretty sure additional resistance isn't going to happen for the reasons given - notably it diminishes a key point of distinction for the Silver Mage.

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