new name for soul shooter

[Jetrel]

I do like aptrgang.

I actually like Aptrgang

I think I'm going to go with this for level-3, to match Draug. I'll probably run it by a few of our norwegian devs in order to avoid gaffes in naming (Circon and Frame both preferred Draug over my original suggestion, Draugr). Like Draug, which simply conveys the idea of a "mighty undead warrior, with no specificity as to fighting style or weaponry", Aptrgang is useable for a level-3 unit, for the same reason that we don't need to specify that Spectres wield swords.

As for level-2, we'll keep brainstorming; I'm not sure if we'll replace it. I'm partial to Bonefletcher, but I'll keep the doors open on that one.

I'll take care of all the changes in the svn repo - esr might have a clever idea for dealing with the campaign server (his upgrade tool might take care of that, I'm not sure).

[Temuchin Khan]

This is how I understand the term "Soul Shooter" : as an undead creature that targets the souls of its victims ( rather then something that uses souls as an ammo ). And I think that it fits the description of the level 3 skeleton archer well. Some of the suggested names are good while others are... Anyway, once more I do not think that any of the names suggested so far are better than the current one

And here is how I understand terms like "Soul Shooter" and "Soul Hunter": demons that try to tempt people into sin in order to drag them down into hell.

In other words, these seem to me to be the worst possible names to give to a Skeletal Archer unit, and to have absolutely nothing to do with the unit whose name they supposedly are.

Besides, it seems to me that the description given by Mythological is metaphysically impossible: how can an arrow, which is a material thing, target a soul, which is an immaterial thing?

Fantasy worlds can change many things, but not the Principle of Non-Contradiction (for those without philosophical training: "A thing cannot both be and not be at the same time and in the same respect").

[im the one you think of]

Besides, it seems to me that the description given by Mythological is metaphysically impossible: how can an arrow, which is a material thing, target a soul, which is an immaterial thing?

Well the arrow could be immaterial. It could, I don't know, be shot by a magic bow, possibly.

[Iris]

You know, when I read the name "Soul Shooter" for the first time when playing Wesnoth 0.9.6, I thought it was some hippie skeleton guy who used the souls of his skeleton cronies as arrows to trespass his victims' hearts.

This will always be my first-impression about this idiot... err... Soul shatter... whatever.

Darkbow.

[Shadow]

I don't know just because it is there for a long time doesn't mean it is good. We had monachies for 1000 years that doesn't make them better.

The only thing that speaks against it is the workload but it is a development release that means it mustn't be compatible.

On a side note actual (almost) no one complained after the sprite size was raised which was and still is a butload of editing work for non mainline and custom sprites.

[Darth Fool]

tinder posts moved to mod forum

[Truper]

The problem with names like Aptrgang (and Draug for that matter) is that they convey absolutely nothing to 99.9% of players.

And no, I have no evidence for that assertion beyond the fact that they conveyed nothing to me before I looked them up as a result of this discussion, and if you draw the inference that I consider myself more likely to have heard of obscure mythological creatures than 99.9% of players, you are correct. <shrugs>

[turin]

But is that a problem? I also had no idea what Revenant meant when I first saw the unit, but that didn't mean I went and complained about it, it meant I said "hey, there's this cool word Revenant that apparently means some sort of undead! Maybe I'll have a use for that in the future."

[Blarumyrran]

The problem with names like Aptrgang (and Draug for that matter) is that they convey absolutely nothing to 99.9% of players

draugr is actually used in many places, such as morrowind and runescape. i think at least some 5% would surely recognize it instantly. and all those who dont, could use some education anyway aptrgangr, on the other hand, is a VERY rare sighting. but, i dont have anything against a lvl 3 sounding completely unfamiliar. besides, a good unit description can get people used to it fast.

[Truper]

The last two posts are both fair points, even though it remains my personal preference that names in Wesnoth be both simple and a lot less obscure that Aptrgang.

I do have a question, however. If the name Aptrgang is adopted, in addition to Draug, it seems the Undead of Wesnoth are being pulled firmly into Norse mythology. Should Norse names be found for the rest of the faction?

[Noyga]

But is that a problem? I also had no idea what Revenant meant when I first saw the unit, but that didn't mean I went and complained about it, it meant I said "hey, there's this cool word Revenant that apparently means some sort of undead! Maybe I'll have a use for that in the future."

It's not always a problem (especially if nobody find something better), but names that are more meaningful and convey an idea of what the unit is are usually better.
For me "Deathbow" > "Aptrgang"
"Aptrgang" for example is so obscure (and i never seen this one before, unlike "Draug") that i still do prefer our current "Soul Shooter".

[Stilgar]

But is that a problem? I also had no idea what Revenant meant when I first saw the unit, but that didn't mean I went and complained about it, it meant I said "hey, there's this cool word Revenant that apparently means some sort of undead! Maybe I'll have a use for that in the future."

I think that comparison is a little bit flawed in that "Revenant" is probably a much more widespread term than "Aptrgang" or such. Well before Wesnoth even existed, I knew of Revenants from Doom 2, in which they were armored skeleton warriors also (albeit with a higher level of technology). I've seen the term in other games too, though I don't recall which at the moment. I'd never heard of an "Aptrgang" until the other day when I typed "viking undead" (or something to that effect) into Google in response to this thread.

@Truper: I am not a dev, but I would say no, we shouldn't replace perfectly good names for the other Undead just to make them more Norse. My rationale was that since the Skeleton and Skeleton Archer lines start off looking very similar, that their final forms could have names that matched in some way.

[Velensk]

I have seen Aptrgang before though I admit that I had (and still have) no idea what it was. I did know what a draug is generaly used for before I played Wesnoth.

As long as a unit is the olny advancment of a lvl 1 or 2 unit that one can understand then I'm sure most people will understand that it is the better version of that unit (in wesnoth at least). If as skeloton advances to a revenant and you don't know what it is you can infer that in wesnoth a revenant is just a vastly superior skeloton same for draug. The fact that the first time I saw draug in fiction it was what they called free-willed contructs made from blood, bone, and flesh does not realy apply to the game.

I still think that dread hunter is the best one on the list for english, even if it dose not translate well. Aptrgang would probably translate better due to the fact that it is a name rather than an adjective and a noun but it dose not have as much feel in it. If you twist it a little you get Acter Gang.

[Cuyo Quiz]

I want to ask Temuchin if he knows of a death spirit /creature which wields a bow.

EDIT: Also, any intention to change Bone Shooter?. Bonefletcher sounded good.

[Jetrel]

The problem with names like Aptrgang (and Draug for that matter) is that they convey absolutely nothing to 99.9% of players.

You don't need to convey meaning, when the unit looks like a big scary skeleton with a bow. It's obvious that it's undead, an archer, and fairly powerful - just look at it. Also, in any relevant situation, you always will be looking at it. Our names should mean something beyond what is already obvious about the unit. If the name is initially unintelligible to a player, it's no loss, because it's visually obvious how it functions in-game; and they'll rapidly learn the meaning of a new word, to boot.

I do have a question, however. If the name Aptrgang is adopted, in addition to Draug, it seems the Undead of Wesnoth are being pulled firmly into Norse mythology. Should Norse names be found for the rest of the faction?

No, we're just borrowing from general european mythological terms; revenant, for example, is very french. Spectre also comes from the same romance background, with its latin(?) word root. Lich, and ghost/geist are anglo-germanic (AFAIK).

For higher-level units, I'd generally prefer to borrow from an existing source, however obscure, than to just slap words together to make a name. For example, I'd much prefer "Phantom" to "Dread Ghost" (or to "Dark Spirit," which was formerly a wesnoth unit name).

I want to ask Temuchin if he knows of a death spirit /creature which wields a bow.

So would I - there apparently are very, very few; I myself don't know of any

Such a thing would only arise in a culture that had a strong "bow" culture, such as the persians, the parthians (or maybe the egyptians...); historically, most cultures had much stronger "sword" cultures. I speak of this to describe when a weapon takes on such importance that it has great religious and ceremonial significance - such as the sword had to a knight or samurai. With samurai, for example, it got to the point where some of them believed their soul resided in their sword, which is exactly the mentality that would spawn a good name for associated undead.

EDIT: Also, any intention to change Bone Shooter?. Bonefletcher sounded good.

Quite possibly; we'll let that simmer for a while.