Backstab, Marksman, Berserk - Abilities or Weapon Specials ?

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PingPangQui
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Backstab, Marksman, Berserk - Abilities or Weapon Specials ?

Post by PingPangQui »

Currently the "Backstab", "Marksman" and "Berserk" are weapon specials. However, in my opinion those are rather abilities / skills a unit has or becomes through its development like "heal", "cure" and "ambush".

Ideas:

1.) Make "Backstab" an ability

Description: This unit is capable of sneak attacks. Attacking with a meele weapon this unit "deals double damage if there is an enemy of the target on the opposite side of the target, and that unit is not incapacitated (e.g. turned stone)."

2.) Make "Marksman" an ability

Description: This unit is very skillful handling ranged weapons such as bows. When attacking with a ranged weapon this unit has always at least a 60% chance to hit.

3.) Make "Berserk" an ability

Description: Fighting an enemy face to face this unit develops an unnatural rage and charges until the fight is decided. Whether this unit attacks or is attacked in meele combat it "presses the engagement until one of the combatants is slain, or 30 rounds of attacks have occurred."

Edit: I know that will change some campaigns and the Extended era (where is a unit with a meele/marksman attack). However it won't effect game play in the default era nor should it effect any official campaigns as far as I know, though I'm not sure.
Last edited by PingPangQui on May 9th, 2007, 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

What happens if someone wants to make a ranged Berserk?

What about ranged Backstab (think of a sniper)?

What about Backstab with only one weapon and not all weapons?

How about melee Marksman (which I think is in one era already)?




Why does this make a difference to you anyway?

PingPangQui
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Post by PingPangQui »

Ken Oh wrote:What happens if someone wants to make a ranged Berserk?
We could make it a general ability, i.e. for ranged and meele attacks. However, a berserk ranged attack sounds quite strange to me - like a person running behind me and shooting at me while me shooting back (like a real bad western).
Ken Oh wrote: What about ranged Backstab (think of a sniper)?
That is indeed questionable. I was also thinking about making Backstab a generally ability no matter whether a unit attacks with a ranged or meele weapon. Or what about calling this simply "sniper" for ranged attacks? Btw. I think that sniper is already covered by marksman (Snipers usually look for an advantageous position to shoot from in order to do this with calm and by that with accuracy. Thats at least my idea about it.)
Ken Oh wrote: What about Backstab with only one weapon and not all weapons?
Why should a unit only with one kind of weapon be able to do a backstab attack. If I were able to do it with a knife I would also be able to do it with a sword, wouldn't I?
Ken Oh wrote: How about melee Marksman (which I think is in one era already)?
I know that, it's extended era. However marksman is a name that implies the usage of a ranged weapon such as a bow rather than the usage of a sword (at least in German). For meele I would rather call this "fencer/fencing" or "unerring".
Ken Oh wrote: Why does this make a difference to you anyway?
It would make the game more sophisticated, in my opinion (Thats not an offense - the game is sophisticated more than lots of proprietary computer games).
Last edited by PingPangQui on May 9th, 2007, 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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gabe
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Post by gabe »

they are like abilities
abilities that apply to weapons

with backstab and marksman
I can see it being more with a specific set of weapon skills

berserk
yah maybe that should be for all attacks
as to me berserk means the unit is just crazy like that
so maybe a berserk ability that is more universal than the one applied to a single attack would be good
as an additional option

but overall I think the fact that they can be applied to specific attacks makes them more versitile
as if you want a berserk unit to go berserk all the time just apply berserk to all attacks
the same can be done with marksman and backstab

but a berserk that was universal for all attacks would be more usefull
than any of the others

well thats what I think :P

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zookeeper
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Re: Backstab, Marksman, Berserk - Abilities or Weapon Specia

Post by zookeeper »

PingPangQui wrote:Currently the "Backstab", "Marksman" and "Berserk" are weapon specials. However, in my opinion those are rather abilities / skills a unit has or becomes through its development like "heal", "cure" and "ambush".
Doesn't make any sense IMO. Abilities are general features of the unit, weapon specials are features of a weapon/attack. Your proposal would change weapon specials to be abilities that only apply to specific weapons/attacks.

Sure, I sort of agree with your rationale about "marksman" being a skill the unit has or attains through development, but still, they represent the unit's skill with that particular weapon.

Do note that I actually think it'd be a good idea to not have some tags available for weapon specials and some for abilities, but have them all useable for both. So I could do a berserk ability or use [resistance] as a weapon special tag. Currently the separation is completely unnecessary IMO. I'd certainly support such a change, if someone is willing to look into it.

PingPangQui
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Re: Backstab, Marksman, Berserk - Abilities or Weapon Specia

Post by PingPangQui »

zookeeper wrote:
PingPangQui wrote:Currently the "Backstab", "Marksman" and "Berserk" are weapon specials. However, in my opinion those are rather abilities / skills a unit has or becomes through its development like "heal", "cure" and "ambush".
Doesn't make any sense IMO. Abilities are general features of the unit, weapon specials are features of a weapon/attack. Your proposal would change weapon specials to be abilities that only apply to specific weapons/attacks.
I agree that marksman is an ability in connection with a certain weapon (generally a ranged weapon) and that Backstab and Berserk are abilities applied to a certain attack, but their are still abilities of an individual (Give an untrained person any bow and ask him to hit a target, e.g. a circle with 1m in diameter, from 10m distance ... Or give a person any dagger, he won't be sneakier just because he has it) and not weapon specials like First Strike (which a unit has due to the length of the weapon wielding).

One may argue that those are enhanced weapons and by that would be weapon specials. I can understand this for Berserk, but not for Marksman nor Backstab. If there were enhanced why is it then that those weapon specials do not apply when defending?
zookeeper wrote: Do note that I actually think it'd be a good idea to not have some tags available for weapon specials and some for abilities, but have them all usable for both. So I could do a berserk ability or use [resistance] as a weapon special tag. Currently the separation is completely unnecessary IMO. I'd certainly support such a change, if someone is willing to look into it.
Hm, at the first glance this sounds like a neat solution . :)
Last edited by PingPangQui on May 9th, 2007, 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zookeeper
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Re: Backstab, Marksman, Berserk - Abilities or Weapon Specia

Post by zookeeper »

PingPangQui wrote:
zookeeper wrote: Doesn't make any sense IMO. Abilities are general features of the unit, weapon specials are features of a weapon/attack. Your proposal would change weapon specials to be abilities that only apply to specific weapons/attacks.
I agree that marksman is an ability in connection with a certain weapon (generally a ranged weapon) and that Backstab and Berserk are abilities applied to a certain attack, but their are still abilities of an individual (Give an untrained person any bow and ask him to hit a target, e.g. a circle with 1m in diameter, from 10m distance ... Or give a person any dagger, he won't be sneakier just because he has it) and not weapon specials like First Strike (which a unit has due to the length of the weapon wielding).

One may argue that those are enhanced weapons and by that would be weapon specials. I can understand this for Berserk, but not for Marksman nor Backstab. If there where enhanced why is it then that those weapon specials do not apply when defending?
Because a weapon special is not (always, in rare cases it might be) a property of the weapon the unit wields when using that attack, but a property of the attack, which is a combination of the unit, weapon and situation. The bow isn't unnaturally accurate and the knives aren't stealthy, but the attacks the unit makes with those weapons are, although only when the conditions are suitable (on offense in this case).

Likewise, "charge" isn't a property of the spear or lance, it's a property of the horseman sticking the spear into the enemy (and vice versa) while in full gallop.

That said, weapon specials should really be called attack specials.

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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

PingPangQui wrote:
Ken Oh wrote: How about melee Marksman (which I think is in one era already)?
I know that, it's extended era. However marksman is a name that implies the usage of a ranged weapon such as a bow rather than the usage of a sword (at least in German). For meele I would rather call this "fencer/fencing" or "unerring".
The name "marksman" implies the use of ranged weapons, yes, but it has always seemed odd to me that in mainline Wesnoth it is only possible to achieve expertise with ranged weapons and not with melee weapons.

I would suggest renaming "marksman," calling it "expert" or "master," and making it applicable to either ranged or melee weapons.

I think it should still be a weapon special, though, because it is quite possible for someone to be a master with one weapon while knowing little or nothing about how to use another weapon. If it were no longer a weapon special, it would be more difficult to specify which[/] weapons the unit excels with.

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Ken_Oh
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Re: Backstab, Marksman, Berserk - Abilities or Weapon Specia

Post by Ken_Oh »

zookeeper wrote:weapon specials should really be called attack specials.
I think that's all there is to this thread.

PingPangQui
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Post by PingPangQui »

Zookeeper, Ken Oh, gabe and Temuchin Khan thanks for your replies. I still do think that those 3 weapon specials mentioned above are rather abilities, i.e. they are connected to individuals rather to weapons.

As I said, why shouldn't one be able to do a backstab attack with a sword when he/she can do it with a dagger?

Imagine dropping the dagger + any other unit taking it. Will it have backstab then?

Imagine dropping the marksman bow + any other unit taking it. Will it have marksman then?

I understand that it is sometimes questionable like with charge whether this should be an ability or a weapon special (thats why I didn't proposed it). It is actually the combination of the lance + riding a horse (i.e. having high kinetic energy and by that doing potentially more damage + taking more damage but it's not that much an abilities of the horseman. According this we could say charge = weapon special (lance+horse). However dropping that lance + any other not mounted unit taking it. Will it have charge then?
According this we could say charge = ability (good horse + horseman). But that would contradict to the fact that a knights sword attack is not charge.

However being able to "merge" ability and weapon special tags would solve this. One could apply those situational.
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Temuchin Khan
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

PingPangQui wrote:Imagine dropping the marksman bow + any other unit taking it. Will it have marksman then?
Certainly not. However, the mere fact that someone is a marksman with a crossbow does not mean that he even knows how to use a longbow or a sling or a throwing axe or a throwing dagger, much less that he is a marksman with any of those other weapons. Similarly, expertise with a ranged weapon need not equate to expertise with any melee weapons at all, and vice versa. One can be a crack shot with a pistol without knowing how to use a rifle, or a master swordsman without knowing how to use a halberd, or a superior crossbowman without knowing how to use the shuriken.

In other words, while it is true that the bow would not necessarily have the same accuracy in the hands of another unit, the skill of the unit that does have the bow is unavoidably bound up with the bow.

I'm not being as clear as I would like to be. Do you get what I'm saying?

EDIT: I like the idea of changing "weapon special" to "attack special."

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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

:| I think this is a useless argument over semantics.

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Post by theotherhiveking »

I like the idea of changing "weapon special" to "attack special."
i think so.
Neutral I think this is a useless argument over semantics.
i think so.

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Post by Darth Fool »

PingPangQui wrote: As I said, why shouldn't one be able to do a backstab attack with a sword when he/she can do it with a dagger?
I know, why shouldn't someone be able to backstab with a two-handed sword or a halbard if they can do it with a dagger. Or better yet, a ballista*! The reason is that for gameplay reasons it was decided that only a single attack should have backstab, not all the attacks of a unit. With enough WML mastery you can make your own version of backstab that enables it for all attacks.

I think this is a useless argument over semantics.
Yeah.

*with nods to http://gamers.deadgentlemen.com/

PingPangQui
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Post by PingPangQui »

I know it looks like a bit nit picking and I know that there are more important things on the to do lists. However, since it would probably mean just a minor change in wesnoth code, it wouldn't effect gameplay in default era or official campaigns and it would make certain campaign scenarios easier to code (I admit also egoism was in the pie.) I brought this in.

Due to being practically alone with my point of few i stop nit picking now. Anyway, thanks for all the answers although they were not like I have hoped.
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