About fearless

[Keiju]

Sorry for starting a new thread about this, but the only thread where I think this would've fitted has been locked (yeah, I do know how bad a start this is to a post).

I've got few questions about this trait-to-be(?). It's in the changelog [http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/w ... /changelog] so I'm assuming its going to be in the 1.3.

Considering traits:

Strong does 1 extra damage per strike in melee, and has 2 extra hitpoints
Quick has one extra movement point, but 10% fewer hitpoints
Resilient has 7 more hitpoints
Intelligent requires 20% less experience to advance a level (not Trolls)

There are also some traits that are not assigned randomly:

Loyal has zero upkeep cost
Dextrous does 1 extra damage per strike in ranged combat (Elves only)
Undead immune to poison (Undead only)

[Oh how I've been tempted to throw that undead trait at the faces of people who ask traits for undead =] ]

I'll use strenght to show you what I'm thinking here.

Unit: 4-2 who is strong changes into 5-2. It's max damage is +25% compared to units without the strong trait.
9-2 -> 10-2 :unit gets about +11% bonus from the trait
15-2 -> 16-2 : about +7% bonus

4-4 -> 5-4 :about +25% bonus
7-4 -> 8-4 ;about +14% bonus
&c

So, the bonus of trait gets reduced when the unit gets tougher. This happens with the dextrous and the resilient traits (units with lower hps gain more advantage when compared to units with more hps), too.

However, This doesn't happen with the intelligent trait nor with the quick trait (-10% hps is -10% hps, doesnt matter if you've got lots of them or not).

Basicly, what I've noted is that the effect of the traits that directly affect your combat abilities (in positive way) is reduced when the unit levels (since it should get more hps and more powerful attack).


Now. Fearless does directly affect your combat ability (though only 1/3 of the time). It gives the unit +33% more damage when compared to a unit that doesnt have it (1/3 of the time). Basicly, what that means is that this trait gets better than the other "combat" traits when your unit levels up (relatively, as they weaken).

Now, onwards to my point =]

Are the traits balanced for 1 lvl units (without going into specific units or unit types). And if they are, does that mean that fearless is going to be, as a new trait, clearly better than the old ones when units are lvl 2 or lvl 3?

Another thing, It's the only existing trait that affects the damage of both ranged and melee attack, making it practical for any unit that can get it (assuming the unit is not neutral].

And for the last part: I'm assuming neutral units won't be getting this trait. It would be useless to them. Now, if the fearless trait is better than the other combat traits then neutral units are traitwise disadvantaged because they can't get the same amount of benefit from anywhere (as far as i know). On the other hand, if it is worse than the other traits that directly affect combat then this trait can be seen as a disadvantage for those who have to take it.

For these reasons I'd like to express my concern over this trait that is found on the changelog. Is it really balanced compared to the other traits? As I've understood, no trait should be clearly more powerful than the others (the trait loyal, for example, isn't given to recruited troops).

Now, I do understand that this isn't as useful (though it is more effective) as strong or dextrous, because you don't get the advantage all the time. But that makes comparing this traits to others hard and might mean this trait is over- or underpowered, in which case since not everyone would be getting it, this trait will cause balance to shift at least somewhat (things can be rebalanced or you could say things arent balanced even now, so that's not in itself too big a concern. But still you shouldn't unintentionally shift the balance.)

I tried to search the forums for discussion about the things above but didn't notice any.

[Gus]

Strong does 1 extra damage per strike in melee, and has 2 extra hitpoints
Resilient has 7 more hitpoints

AFAIK, Strong is +1HP, and resilient is 3HP + 10% (or vice-versa, i'm not sure how it's done).

As for your concerns, i think they're interesting and well-argumented. I'm not sure they are justified, so we'll have to wait for the devs to answer =)

[Sapient]

well, what can I say about 1.3... it is a fresh development branch, the perfect place to test exciting ideas such as 'fearless' trait for balance issues. you have raised some interesting points, though; thanks.

[Inigo Montoya]

Maybe there could be a variation on Fearless for neutral units?

How about, if a neutral unit has this trait, it gets a 25% bonus at dawn and dusk, without any penalty at other times?

[Baufo]

Maybe there could be a variation on Fearless for neutral units?

How about, if a neutral unit has this trait, it gets a 25% bonus at dawn and dusk, without any penalty at other times?

I have never seen this trait on neutral units yet so I assume they can't get it.

EDIT: I look it up: only the "non neutral" races get it.

[Keiju]

The traits I showed in my post were taken from the online manual. Even if the strong trait gives just 1 hp and resilient trait gives +10% +3hp the point remains the same (though to lesser extent in the resilient trait): the combat traits get relatively weaker as the unit gets more powerful.

Mainly there are two things that concern me in this trait.

First one is purely balance issue on the level one units (is this trait about as good as the others, or better or worse). This is something that needs to be examined (or at least it would be nice if it was explained publically =] ) properly since neutral units wouldn't be getting this and some other things might need to be rebalanced due to that.

This is something that isn't so important as it can be tweaked one way or another. I was merely asking if people have given thought about it. Since I couldn't find any explanations I find it in my place to ask for them.

The other is something I think is a real problem that can't be fixed easily if the idea of the trait remains the same. The problem is that other traits that affect units survivability or it's ability to kill play smaller part in the units abilities as it levels up. (one more damage doesn't give as much edge when the units damage per hit goes up), but fearless gives clear +33% (about) to damage no matter how powerful the unit is.

Basicly what I find the problem in practice is this: If the trait is balanced for lvl 1 units it won't be balanced for lvl 2 and lvl 3 units (the trait will be better than others for higher level units in this case). If however, it is balanced for lvl 3 units, it won't be balanced for the units of the lesser levels (lesser level units get smaller advantage from this trait than from the others, making unit who gets this trait weaker than a similar unit that doesn't get this trait). Even if it is balanced for lvl 2 units it means that unit who gets this trait is worse off in the beginning of its life and better off at the end of it. This mean that the trait cannot ever (in this form) be properly balanced with other traits that affect the outcome of the combat directly in positive ways for the controller of the unit.

[sorry about repeating stuff (nothing new in this post), but I find my first post wasn't that clear and it might be helpful to try to explain what I was thinking better]

[Noyga]

The other is something I think is a real problem that can't be fixed easily if the idea of the trait remains the same. The problem is that other traits that affect units survivability or it's ability to kill play smaller part in the units abilities as it levels up. (one more damage doesn't give as much edge when the units damage per hit goes up), but fearless gives clear +33% (about) to damage no matter how powerful the unit is.

It gives +33% at the worst time and no bonus otherwise.
If you compare to a neutral unit, it gives +25% damage 1/3 of the time which results in a +8.33% overall bonus... This is not that powerful.

Basicly what I find the problem in practice is this: If the trait is balanced for lvl 1 units it won't be balanced for lvl 2 and lvl 3 units (the trait will be better than others for higher level units in this case). If however, it is balanced for lvl 3 units, it won't be balanced for the units of the lesser levels (lesser level units get smaller advantage from this trait than from the others, making unit who gets this trait weaker than a similar unit that doesn't get this trait). Even if it is balanced for lvl 2 units it means that unit who gets this trait is worse off in the beginning of its life and better off at the end of it. This mean that the trait cannot ever (in this form) be properly balanced with other traits that affect the outcome of the combat directly in positive ways for the controller of the unit.

Well the unstable branch is meant to make experiments, sometimes we might break stuff (balance in particular), but broken stuff will usually get fixed later.
In particular this can help to see in practice how powerful are those new ideas of traits (healthy & fearless). Some MP developpers already played some games with them, and so far they did not seem to feel the need for further tweaks in traits.
Btw traits are not meant to be perfectly balanced for every units. Some are more interesting on some units, others are not.

[Airk]

Not to derail, but while discussing trait balance - why is it that strong gives +1 HPs (used to be more), whereas dextrous, which does essentially the same thing as strong, has no corresponding benefit?

[irrevenant]

Not to derail, but while discussing trait balance - why is it that strong gives +1 HPs (used to be more), whereas dextrous, which does essentially the same thing as strong, has no corresponding benefit?

AFAIK:
1. Because it doesn't make sense that being an especially good archer would make you tougher.
2. Because Ranged combat is rarer in Wesnoth than Melee combat (meaning you can use it without retaliation more often), so a +1 to ranged attack is more beneficial than a +1 to melee attack.

[elricz]

If the treat is decided to be too powerful, one option could be that only worked when attacking or defending, not both.

[Radament]

If the treat is decided to be too powerful, one option could be that only worked when attacking or defending, not both.

That's a good idea. Only when defending maybe?

[Cuyo Quiz]

I would say when attacking. We could all use a little more offensive nudge, or people may end fearful of attacking Spearmen/Knights at night because he does normal damage.