Give merfolk the submerge ability
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Give merfolk the submerge ability
Merfolk rule the sea at daytime but suffer at night. The problem is that naga and flyers both move faster and has a lot better movement over land.
Not that this is broken or unbalanced: merfolk deals good damage, has cold resistance against ghosts and good defences. Earlier discussions (mostly) conclude that the combat stats are as they should.
But earlier discussions also shows that mermen not give the player a feeling of controlling the "masters of the sea" nor does the current stats reflect the descripion of mermen as superior to naga on deep sea due their ability to breath under water.
My idea is to give mermen the "submerge" ability. This does not change combat in any way but improve the mermens tactical choices slightly and enhance their racial uniqueness.
I think this will make water battles more challenging and fun, currently they can be rather boring due high defences and few types of units involved. I also think the the increased probablility of fights over deep water and ambushes would make water battles solve faster and add tactical depth.
There might be some disadventages, but with a new development version coming up, I say: let's try it!
Not that this is broken or unbalanced: merfolk deals good damage, has cold resistance against ghosts and good defences. Earlier discussions (mostly) conclude that the combat stats are as they should.
But earlier discussions also shows that mermen not give the player a feeling of controlling the "masters of the sea" nor does the current stats reflect the descripion of mermen as superior to naga on deep sea due their ability to breath under water.
My idea is to give mermen the "submerge" ability. This does not change combat in any way but improve the mermens tactical choices slightly and enhance their racial uniqueness.
I think this will make water battles more challenging and fun, currently they can be rather boring due high defences and few types of units involved. I also think the the increased probablility of fights over deep water and ambushes would make water battles solve faster and add tactical depth.
There might be some disadventages, but with a new development version coming up, I say: let's try it!
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Hm, ... ambush doesn't work when fighting via ai, afaik, thus submerge propably won't work too. Therfore no differnce or problems .Ken Oh wrote:At least it would make Submerge useful.
The only problem I see with this is the campaigns. I think some of the HthT scenarios would work out a lot differently than they do now.
The Clan Antagonist.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
- Ken_Oh
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You've got to be kidding. Take what you see below and consider what a dozen mermen with would be able to do traveling hidden on what is the most common tile in the 4th scenario of HttT.
[map]sssssssssssssssssssscdggggfffff
sssssssssssssssssssscdggggfgfff
sssssssssssssssssssscdggtgggfff
sssssssssssssssssssscdgggggggff
ssssssssssssssssssssccdggggggff
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sssssssssssc\ggCcdssssssccddCCC
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sssssssssscccgCCCddsssssssccgcg
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ssssssssssssccccccccsssssccgggg
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sssssssssssssscccccccccscddgggg
sssssssssssssssccccccZcccddgggg
ssssssssssssssscccccdccccdggggg
ssssssssssssssscccccccccdgtgggg
sssssssssssssssscZcccccddgggggg
sssssssssssssssccccccccddgggggg
sssssssssssssssscccccddggggggtg
sssssssssssssssscccddgdgtgggggg
ssssssssscscscsccddgdgggggggggg
ccssscscscZcsccddgdgggggggggggg
ccssscccsccdcddgdggtggggggggggh
ddcsscZccdcddgdgggggggggggggghh
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1dcccdgggggggggggggtggghghhhhhh
ndkkkdggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhh[/map]
[map]sssssssssssssssssssscdggggfffff
sssssssssssssssssssscdggggfgfff
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sssssssssssssssssssssscdggggggf
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ssssssssssssssssssssssccddggggg
ssssssssssssssssssssssscddggggg
ssssssssssssscscsssssssscdgtggg
ssssssssssscc\ctsssssssscdgggCg
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ssssssssssssccccccccsssssccgggg
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sssssssssssssssccccccZcccddgggg
ssssssssssssssscccccdccccdggggg
ssssssssssssssscccccccccdgtgggg
sssssssssssssssscZcccccddgggggg
sssssssssssssssccccccccddgggggg
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sssssssssssssssscccddgdgtgggggg
ssssssssscscscsccddgdgggggggggg
ccssscscscZcsccddgdgggggggggggg
ccssscccsccdcddgdggtggggggggggh
ddcsscZccdcddgdgggggggggggggghh
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ndctcdggggggggggggggggggtgghhhh
1dcccdgggggggggggggtggghghhhhhh
ndkkkdggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhh[/map]
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I think there is a slight misunderstanding. What I meant was that the ai knows where your elvish ranger is, irrespective whether he is ambushed or not, afaik. That said, I assumed that the same applies for submerged units. However, I don't want to spread wrong information. Maybe a dev familiar with this topic could give a sign whether it is true what I just said or not.Ken Oh wrote:You've got to be kidding. Take what you see below and consider what a dozen mermen with would be able to do traveling hidden on what is the most common tile in the 4th scenario of HttT.
Btw.,
JW wrote:(...) I think this is a great idea.
The Clan Antagonist.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
"Larry the Cow was a bit frustrated at the current state of Linux distributions (...) until he tried Gentoo Linux" - Free Software for free people.
Im trying to reason my way through this. First off, mermen breathe air. Submerge can last an extended amount of time (50+ turns). So either they submerge and have 0 land movement (confined to water tiles) or they can submerge for only a short period of time before resurfacing for air. Call it the dive ability. (loyalists - can only dive during the morning and afternoon: 2 moves to 'zone in' on an unlucky unit, also it self balances, because the loyalist unit will give away his position to preform its bonus attack).
Considerations:
A unit confined to water is a very specialized unit and should probably be an option for advancement from level 1 to level 2.
Considerations:
A unit confined to water is a very specialized unit and should probably be an option for advancement from level 1 to level 2.
Possible situation:governor wrote:A unit confined to water is a very specialized unit and should probably be an option for advancement from level 1 to level 2.
Your merman is on land for some reason, with no access to water. It levels up on your opponent's turn, and the random chooser makes it into this unit. Result, your unit is stuck there and a sitting duck. Doesn't sound too good to me, unless there's some way to cut that choice off of the random level-up thing (there may already be, I haven't kept up with every minute change that's been added to 1.2.)
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IIRC this is totally wrong, I think the AI can't see where you unit is, but because it is always 'paying attention' it can easily work out where it is in a lot of circumstances, in this map it wouldn't have much of an idea where they are, I'm not even sure if it would know they exist once they spawn.PingPangQui wrote: I think there is a slight misunderstanding. What I meant was that the ai knows where your elvish ranger is, irrespective whether he is ambushed or not, afaik. That said, I assumed that the same applies for submerged units. However, I don't want to spread wrong information.
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I am quite sure that the AI ignores fog of war (ie it can see where your units are even if fog is on), but does not know where your units hidden with ambush or submerge are, except possibly the leader who it might still know where it is. If it finds hidden units, it is generally becuase they hid in the path that the AI was taking anyways.im the one you think of wrote:IIRC this is totally wrong, I think the AI can't see where you unit is, but because it is always 'paying attention' it can easily work out where it is in a lot of circumstances, in this map it wouldn't have much of an idea where they are, I'm not even sure if it would know they exist once they spawn.PingPangQui wrote: I think there is a slight misunderstanding. What I meant was that the ai knows where your elvish ranger is, irrespective whether he is ambushed or not, afaik. That said, I assumed that the same applies for submerged units. However, I don't want to spread wrong information.
"you can already do that with WML"
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http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 760#131760
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 1358#11358
- Ken_Oh
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Exactly. Let me illustrate with another map, this one from my campaign.Darth Fool wrote:I am quite sure that the AI ignores fog of war (ie it can see where your units are even if fog is on), but does not know where your units hidden with ambush or submerge are, except possibly the leader who it might still know where it is. If it finds hidden units, it is generally becuase they hid in the path that the AI was taking anyways.
[map]fffffffffffffffffffgfgRggfffffffffffffff
fffffffffffffgfggggffgRgfgffffffffffffff
ffffffggfgfgggg?ggggggRRggggggfgfgffffff
fffffffgggg?ggggggvggCCCggggggggtfffffff
ffggffggggtggggggRgRCvtvCRg?gggggggggfff
ffgggggggggggggRRRRgCCtCCgRRRRgggggggfff
fgfggggggggggRRg?ggggg1gggvgggRRgg?ggggf
fggggggggggRRggggggggcgcccccggggRRgggvgg
gg?gvggggCRRRCgcccccccccccccccggggRRgggg
gggggggggckkkccccccscsssssssccccggggR?gg
gfggdgggcckkkccsssssssssssssssccccggRRgg
ffgggggccckkkcssssssssssssssssssccccggRg
gggccccccckkkcssssssssssssssssssssccccRR
gccccccssckkkcssssssssssssssssssssscc//c
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sssssssssckkkcccccccccccccscssssccgggcss
sssssssccckRkccccgcgcgccccccccscc//ccsss
sssssssccgRRRgcggggnnnggggcgccc//ccsssss
sssssscccgrRrggggggn2nggvggggR/cccccssss
ssssscccggtRrgggvgggnggggggRRgggcgccccss
sssccccggggrRggggggggggggggRrgg?gdggcccc
sccccggg?gggRrgggggggggggggrggggggggggcc[/map]
You're Undead, team 2, that can only recruit WCs and Skels/Skel Archers and who is horribly outmatched by Loyalists to the north. The whole idea of this scenario is a contrived way to make Submerge useful. You should first recruit 6 Skels/Skel Archers and send them straight north through the deep water. Then you send the rest of your gold as fodder to the west bridge as you let your leader escape to the east.
Long story short, the AI -never- suspects that those Skels you sent north are going to come up at the leader's feet. It's a strat that totally wouldn't work vs. a real person.