Give merfolk the submerge ability

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governor
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Post by governor »

Master Stilgar wrote: Your merman is on land for some reason, with no access to water. It levels up on your opponent's turn, and the random chooser makes it into this unit. Result, your unit is stuck there and a sitting duck.
Yes, therein is a problem. Default era is very well balanced already so adding an ability to one unit without making it risky is most likely not going to happen. So I just threw out some ideas. My original point was that submerge for an air-breathing unit is illogical.

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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

governor wrote:Im trying to reason my way through this. First off, mermen breathe air.
They clearly can breathe air. I assumed that they could also breathe water.

YbeRn00b
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Post by YbeRn00b »

Naga
The serpentine naga are one of the few races capable of any meaningful mobility in water, giving them a whole world forbidden to land dwellers. Still, they are not true creatures of the sea, and their inability to breathe water leaves them in trepidation of the abyss. They are small, and somewhat frail in form, but often much more nimble than their opponents.

Mermen
Skilled creatures of the sea, Mermen are powerful and quick in any watery environment, but struggle greatly to move on land.

Reading the description, mermen should definitly have some sort of advantage to naga in deep water. The submerge ability is perfect to reflect this, without disturbing the combat balance.

Imp
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Post by Imp »

governor wrote: My original point was that submerge for an air-breathing unit is illogical.
Apart from WiNR, consider dolphins and whales, which you must agree are able to "submerge".

Gus
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Post by Gus »

I don't know, they DO have to come breathe on the surface regularly. So they would have to stay hidden for a maximum of X turns, which was proposed earlier in the thread i believe. And this seems really messy to me.

No, either they have a mechanism to allow them to breathe in the water, and then the only problem to adding submerge would be balancing issues, or they can breathe only air and then, no submerge for them.
But i seem to remember something about elves living on Venus, so... ;)
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La_vie_en_Wose
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Post by La_vie_en_Wose »

Hi everyone !

This is the best idea I've ever read in this idea forum. Making Nagas and Mermen have the opportunity to move under water seem obvious.
I've read the two first pages of this thread and I'd like to say that I can't see where is the scenario balancing problem in BoP and that making comparison between mermen and whales or any real fish is absurd, knowing that Mermen half-men - half-fish.
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Gus
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Post by Gus »

La_vie_en_Wose wrote:Making Nagas and Mermen have the opportunity to move under water seem obvious.
It would be only Mermen, because Nagas are not supposed to be very comfortable in deep water.
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.

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La_vie_en_Wose
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Post by La_vie_en_Wose »

Gus wrote:
La_vie_en_Wose wrote:Making Nagas and Mermen have the opportunity to move under water seem obvious.
It would be only Mermen, because Nagas are not supposed to be very comfortable in deep water.
Salut Gus !

Do you know what ? Nagas do not seem to be comfortable anywhere !
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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YbeRn00b
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Post by YbeRn00b »

Gus wrote:I don't know, they DO have to come breathe on the surface regularly.
I assume that merfolk swim near the surface and might even have to breath air. You can ambush them, right?

I think submerge will be more of a tactical choice than an uber ability, after all you have to sacrafice some defence to submerge. It would make water battles more challenging for both sides..

catwhowalksbyhimself
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Post by catwhowalksbyhimself »

Mermen have always, in every fantasy setting that I now of, been able to breathe water, and usually air as well. All indications are that this is true of Wesnothian Mermen, but not of Nagas. I therefore think this an excellent idea.

martenzo
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Post by martenzo »

You know, this is how submerge got started, I had the idea that meremen (and nagas) could be invisible underwater, that was back in 0.8.x or 9.x, when the meremaids were not in the game yet. Skeletons were not in my idea. Well, just feels nice to see my idea reborn :)

An idea, however, to resolve the problem with overpowerment in scenarios: have this line
submerge=merefolk ; =skeletons ; =both

That would be my solutin, but as I have fallen behind a bit on WML from 1.1, this might not be the best solution.
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Maeglin Dubh
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Post by Maeglin Dubh »

Gus wrote: But i seem to remember something about elves living on Venus, so... ;)
scott, referring to the Drakes wrote:If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus
Cuyo Quiz wrote:I really should push for Temuchin's brainstorming with all my might someday, when the skies are cloudy, the winds dance and the light is free to roam over the soil along the fog.

Leo
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Post by Leo »

1. All seems to agree then submerge will make merefolk "as sea born as they should".
2. Adding submerge probably hasn't many balance issues because:
a) Most multiplayer maps don't have large bodies of any terrain (not deep water, nor forest). So this doesn't unbalance merefolk (for first look). And if this DOES unbalance merefolk , we have a lot of releases between 1.3 and stable, so we have time to fix.
b) There are bodies of deep water at campaign maps. But now AI cheatly ignore ambush & submerge and I can't remember any mainline campaign where AI use merefolk (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Can multiplayer delevopers say something?

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Chris NS
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Post by Chris NS »

I suppose that if you bear in mind that hexes can be miles across, one unit normally represents an whole squad/platoon of that kind, and one turn lasts 4 hours, then you might want to take into account whether so many units could remain out of view for so long over such a wide area. In the case of elvish rangers hiding in forests, yes they probably would. Submerged skeletons can also just stand there underwater. Merfolk, however, might have to surface for air every now and then, spoiling any chance of ambushing anyone.

Not that this matters too much. Gameplay and balance trumps realism - it is usually better to change unit descriptions to match the rules than the other way round.

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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Leo wrote:But now AI cheatly ignore ambush & submerge and I can't remember any mainline campaign where AI use merefolk (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Read mine and Darth Fool's posts.

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