Increasing viability of Bats, with new Ability: Hover
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Increasing viability of Bats, with new Ability: Hover
I've searched the forums for "flying", "flight" and "hover" but did not come across any similar posts; there is one post related to flying units but that is in the developer's section and I can't post there. It's quite possible that I might have missed any though, since this idea is so simple/mundane it's hard to imagine it hasn't been raised yet. In any case, here goes:
1. (Flying) Units with the Hover ability cannot be attacked with melee weapons. The exception is when the hovering unit itself is swooping down with a melee attack, in which case the defending unit will automatically retaliate with a melee attack of its own.
2. I am thinking primarily of Bats. Hover would increase their survival rate (because frankly, drain does nothing for them, since even at full HP, most units are capable of killing them in 1 or 2 turns) by granting them partial protection against melee-only units. This would give them just a little bit more viability as a unit.
3. This ability would not be granted to Griffons/Drakes. The practical reason is that it would make them too powerful. The rationale is that griffons and drakes do not stay in constant flight (ie hover), and are thus vulnerable to melee when they land.
Ghosts shouldn't have hover as well; the reason is that they do not fly at a high level (high enough to avoid being struck by melee), but sort of trail along a short distance above ground (hence their movement is somewhat impeded by water).
1. (Flying) Units with the Hover ability cannot be attacked with melee weapons. The exception is when the hovering unit itself is swooping down with a melee attack, in which case the defending unit will automatically retaliate with a melee attack of its own.
2. I am thinking primarily of Bats. Hover would increase their survival rate (because frankly, drain does nothing for them, since even at full HP, most units are capable of killing them in 1 or 2 turns) by granting them partial protection against melee-only units. This would give them just a little bit more viability as a unit.
3. This ability would not be granted to Griffons/Drakes. The practical reason is that it would make them too powerful. The rationale is that griffons and drakes do not stay in constant flight (ie hover), and are thus vulnerable to melee when they land.
Ghosts shouldn't have hover as well; the reason is that they do not fly at a high level (high enough to avoid being struck by melee), but sort of trail along a short distance above ground (hence their movement is somewhat impeded by water).
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IMO bats are just fine as they are, but it's true that this idea has some potential. (And there has been some discussion around it earlier.)
Anyway... I'm not against the idea, but I don't frantically support it either. But what I'm completely sure about is that the bats would be really really overpowered with this added! I mean, they are supposed to suck. They are only bats.
Still, with some modification it could (maybe) work for them:
1) They shouldn't be able to hold villages if they can't be attacked. Therefore they should be attackable by anyone when they are holding a village!
2) To balance things their melee should be even worse. I'm thinking something like 2-2.
3) Blood Bats should propably lose their ZoC and some melee points and maybe HP.
This would make the bats completely useless in combat, but they would be unquestionably far better scouts than they are right now. And maybe this is exactly what they need, I'm not sure..
One thing that popped in my mind just now, is that it doesn't really make sense if other flyers aren't able to attack the bats in melee. If we were to take that into account, we would be drifting into complexity, which we naturally want to avoid if possible.
Overall feel of this is pretty positive for me.
Anyway... I'm not against the idea, but I don't frantically support it either. But what I'm completely sure about is that the bats would be really really overpowered with this added! I mean, they are supposed to suck. They are only bats.
Still, with some modification it could (maybe) work for them:
1) They shouldn't be able to hold villages if they can't be attacked. Therefore they should be attackable by anyone when they are holding a village!
2) To balance things their melee should be even worse. I'm thinking something like 2-2.
3) Blood Bats should propably lose their ZoC and some melee points and maybe HP.
This would make the bats completely useless in combat, but they would be unquestionably far better scouts than they are right now. And maybe this is exactly what they need, I'm not sure..
One thing that popped in my mind just now, is that it doesn't really make sense if other flyers aren't able to attack the bats in melee. If we were to take that into account, we would be drifting into complexity, which we naturally want to avoid if possible.
Overall feel of this is pretty positive for me.
Response (sorry if I'm too long-winded)
1. IMO, Hover wouldn't make bats powerful in the same way that it would gryphons powerful. This is because bats do pretty low damage (not enough to make too much of a difference in most cases). It makes it just slightly more defensive, but not the least any more offensive.
Currently, bats might be used in these ways:
a. To flag villages
b. To divert/block enemy units
c. To finish off dying units
The first is its primary function; the other two are only of limited use (ie the bat does not perform that particularly well) -- this is arguable, of course.
Generally though, my feeling is that bats are little more than nuisances -- and that's precisely their main function in combat, I assume (ie to annoy enemies). The Hover ability would highlight this "function" of theirs (I think this is different from saying that "bats are supposed to suck" -- designing a unit to be intentionally lousy is indicative of bad design).
In any case, they can be bumped up to Level 1. The extra Upkeep might justify this unique ability. The Undead faction already has a Level 0 unit in the Walking Corpse anyway.
In conclusion, I think this ability would make gameplay a little more interesting without affecting balance of combat.
2. @Dragon Warrior: I'm not sure what you mean -- that this ability would better fit another unit? Or it's unfeasible for all current units (but might fit a new unit)? Or what?
3. @deserter:
This is stretching it a little, I know. *shrug*
Currently, bats might be used in these ways:
a. To flag villages
b. To divert/block enemy units
c. To finish off dying units
The first is its primary function; the other two are only of limited use (ie the bat does not perform that particularly well) -- this is arguable, of course.
Generally though, my feeling is that bats are little more than nuisances -- and that's precisely their main function in combat, I assume (ie to annoy enemies). The Hover ability would highlight this "function" of theirs (I think this is different from saying that "bats are supposed to suck" -- designing a unit to be intentionally lousy is indicative of bad design).
In any case, they can be bumped up to Level 1. The extra Upkeep might justify this unique ability. The Undead faction already has a Level 0 unit in the Walking Corpse anyway.
In conclusion, I think this ability would make gameplay a little more interesting without affecting balance of combat.
2. @Dragon Warrior: I'm not sure what you mean -- that this ability would better fit another unit? Or it's unfeasible for all current units (but might fit a new unit)? Or what?
3. @deserter:
You have a point. But maybe we can reason/explain it away thus: Gryphons are not constantly in flight; bats (presumably) are. When a bat is adjacent to a Gryphon, the bat is flying but the Gryphon is on land. To attack the bat, the Gryphon would have to take flight, by which time the bat would have flown away. In this way, it can escape melee attacks from other flying creatures.One thing that popped in my mind just now, is that it doesn't really make sense if other flyers aren't able to attack the bats in melee.
This is stretching it a little, I know. *shrug*
Re: Response (sorry if I'm too long-winded)
I agree. With any more combat-effective unit than bat, this would be insanely powerful ability. Thus, I think that the bats are the units that have a potential in using this.wnsk wrote:1. IMO, Hover wouldn't make bats powerful in the same way that it would gryphons powerful.
They aren't supposed to suck in a way that makes them totally useless. They are supposed to suck generally in combat. You can't assume that a bat (or even a swarm of bats) would be particularly effective. But they can indeed be a nuisance.wnsk wrote:Generally though, my feeling is that bats are little more than nuisances -- and that's precisely their main function in combat, I assume (ie to annoy enemies). The Hover ability would highlight this "function" of theirs (I think this is different from saying that "bats are supposed to suck" -- designing a unit to be intentionally lousy is indicative of bad design).
And they do have a gap to fill in their faction.
And the hover ability would indeed highlight their function as a scout. (Or as a nuisance! )
Well, I'm waiting for someone wiser than me to ponder about this and speak out as I don't have anything to add to this idea.
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Hover is not appropriate for a scout unit. It is an amazing defensive ability. The ability to completly negate half an enemies attacks is very powerful. Bats in a village would be very difficult for some factions to unseat. I understand the desire for something like this, but it is just too powerful. Fantasy general handled this by having two levels, units that are ground units, and flying units. A flying unit and a ground unit could occupy the same hex, but flying units could not be attacked by melee ground units, and they could not occupy a strategic site to gain whatever benefits it had. This was a good solution, but not really possible with wesnoth.
Basically, hover would be useless against elves (they all have ranged attacks which are generally better to use against bats anyways) and drakes(flame bait anyone?) Pretty powerful against northerners (assassins and archers are the only ones that could really unseat them, goblins being too weak in their ranged attacks.) Not too bad against other undead, but oddly bats couldn't kill bats and you generally need much more expensive units to hunt down the bats, etc...
It just really is too powerful in my opinion. I could perhaps see it on a very high level unit, but even then there would be serious balance issues.
Basically, hover would be useless against elves (they all have ranged attacks which are generally better to use against bats anyways) and drakes(flame bait anyone?) Pretty powerful against northerners (assassins and archers are the only ones that could really unseat them, goblins being too weak in their ranged attacks.) Not too bad against other undead, but oddly bats couldn't kill bats and you generally need much more expensive units to hunt down the bats, etc...
It just really is too powerful in my opinion. I could perhaps see it on a very high level unit, but even then there would be serious balance issues.
"you can already do that with WML"
Fight Creeeping Biggerism!
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 760#131760
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 1358#11358
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Re: Response (sorry if I'm too long-winded)
Plus it does cost 13 gold atm, which is more than some lvl1 units, I've thought it has been expensive for a while now, this would help it a bit. I think reducing its damage and making it level 1 would be enough, if the ability involved not being allowed to hover in villages/mountains.wnsk wrote: In any case, they can be bumped up to Level 1. The extra Upkeep might justify this unique ability. The Undead faction already has a Level 0 unit in the Walking Corpse anyway.
- Maeglin Dubh
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Topic will be left open for the express purpose of creating the code for such an ability for UMC purposes.
Any more posts about putting it on the Bat will be deleted on sight.
Thus Sayeth the Mod.
Any more posts about putting it on the Bat will be deleted on sight.
Thus Sayeth the Mod.
Cuyo Quiz wrote:I really should push for Temuchin's brainstorming with all my might someday, when the skies are cloudy, the winds dance and the light is free to roam over the soil along the fog.
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Hilarious. You should be on Comedy Central. You're a real wit. A card, if you will.
I hope I don't have to deal with you.
Nothing more should be posted here, unless you actually have written the code for the hover ability, and even then you're probably better off starting a Hover thread in the WML Workshop.
I hope I don't have to deal with you.
Nothing more should be posted here, unless you actually have written the code for the hover ability, and even then you're probably better off starting a Hover thread in the WML Workshop.
Cuyo Quiz wrote:I really should push for Temuchin's brainstorming with all my might someday, when the skies are cloudy, the winds dance and the light is free to roam over the soil along the fog.
Find it hereif you want to try it. It has been about 5 minutes work of copying and pasting.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde