Increasing viability of Bats, with new Ability: Hover

[wnsk]

I've searched the forums for "flying", "flight" and "hover" but did not come across any similar posts; there is one post related to flying units but that is in the developer's section and I can't post there. It's quite possible that I might have missed any though, since this idea is so simple/mundane it's hard to imagine it hasn't been raised yet. In any case, here goes:

1. (Flying) Units with the Hover ability cannot be attacked with melee weapons. The exception is when the hovering unit itself is swooping down with a melee attack, in which case the defending unit will automatically retaliate with a melee attack of its own.

2. I am thinking primarily of Bats. Hover would increase their survival rate (because frankly, drain does nothing for them, since even at full HP, most units are capable of killing them in 1 or 2 turns) by granting them partial protection against melee-only units. This would give them just a little bit more viability as a unit.

3. This ability would not be granted to Griffons/Drakes. The practical reason is that it would make them too powerful. The rationale is that griffons and drakes do not stay in constant flight (ie hover), and are thus vulnerable to melee when they land.

Ghosts shouldn't have hover as well; the reason is that they do not fly at a high level (high enough to avoid being struck by melee), but sort of trail along a short distance above ground (hence their movement is somewhat impeded by water).

[Gus]

Well, for that to happen, you would have to prove bats are underpowered as they are. Frankly, i don't know how you could do that =)

[Noyga]

This looks like a too powerful ability for level 0 units that already got a good defense (for a level 0 unit).

[Dragon Master]

neat ability, just on the wrong unit.

[deserter]

IMO bats are just fine as they are, but it's true that this idea has some potential. (And there has been some discussion around it earlier.)

Anyway... I'm not against the idea, but I don't frantically support it either. But what I'm completely sure about is that the bats would be really really overpowered with this added! I mean, they are supposed to suck. They are only bats.

Still, with some modification it could (maybe) work for them:
1) They shouldn't be able to hold villages if they can't be attacked. Therefore they should be attackable by anyone when they are holding a village!
2) To balance things their melee should be even worse. I'm thinking something like 2-2.
3) Blood Bats should propably lose their ZoC and some melee points and maybe HP.

This would make the bats completely useless in combat, but they would be unquestionably far better scouts than they are right now. And maybe this is exactly what they need, I'm not sure..

One thing that popped in my mind just now, is that it doesn't really make sense if other flyers aren't able to attack the bats in melee. If we were to take that into account, we would be drifting into complexity, which we naturally want to avoid if possible.

Overall feel of this is pretty positive for me.

[wnsk]

1. IMO, Hover wouldn't make bats powerful in the same way that it would gryphons powerful. This is because bats do pretty low damage (not enough to make too much of a difference in most cases). It makes it just slightly more defensive, but not the least any more offensive.

Currently, bats might be used in these ways:

a. To flag villages
b. To divert/block enemy units
c. To finish off dying units

The first is its primary function; the other two are only of limited use (ie the bat does not perform that particularly well) -- this is arguable, of course.

Generally though, my feeling is that bats are little more than nuisances -- and that's precisely their main function in combat, I assume (ie to annoy enemies). The Hover ability would highlight this "function" of theirs (I think this is different from saying that "bats are supposed to suck" -- designing a unit to be intentionally lousy is indicative of bad design).

In any case, they can be bumped up to Level 1. The extra Upkeep might justify this unique ability. The Undead faction already has a Level 0 unit in the Walking Corpse anyway.

In conclusion, I think this ability would make gameplay a little more interesting without affecting balance of combat.

2. @Dragon Warrior: I'm not sure what you mean -- that this ability would better fit another unit? Or it's unfeasible for all current units (but might fit a new unit)? Or what?

3. @deserter:

One thing that popped in my mind just now, is that it doesn't really make sense if other flyers aren't able to attack the bats in melee.

You have a point. But maybe we can reason/explain it away thus: Gryphons are not constantly in flight; bats (presumably) are. When a bat is adjacent to a Gryphon, the bat is flying but the Gryphon is on land. To attack the bat, the Gryphon would have to take flight, by which time the bat would have flown away. In this way, it can escape melee attacks from other flying creatures.

This is stretching it a little, I know. *shrug*

[deserter]

1. IMO, Hover wouldn't make bats powerful in the same way that it would gryphons powerful.

I agree. With any more combat-effective unit than bat, this would be insanely powerful ability. Thus, I think that the bats are the units that have a potential in using this.

Generally though, my feeling is that bats are little more than nuisances -- and that's precisely their main function in combat, I assume (ie to annoy enemies). The Hover ability would highlight this "function" of theirs (I think this is different from saying that "bats are supposed to suck" -- designing a unit to be intentionally lousy is indicative of bad design).

They aren't supposed to suck in a way that makes them totally useless. They are supposed to suck generally in combat. You can't assume that a bat (or even a swarm of bats) would be particularly effective. But they can indeed be a nuisance.

And they do have a gap to fill in their faction.

And the hover ability would indeed highlight their function as a scout. (Or as a nuisance! )

Well, I'm waiting for someone wiser than me to ponder about this and speak out as I don't have anything to add to this idea.

[Darth Fool]

Hover is not appropriate for a scout unit. It is an amazing defensive ability. The ability to completly negate half an enemies attacks is very powerful. Bats in a village would be very difficult for some factions to unseat. I understand the desire for something like this, but it is just too powerful. Fantasy general handled this by having two levels, units that are ground units, and flying units. A flying unit and a ground unit could occupy the same hex, but flying units could not be attacked by melee ground units, and they could not occupy a strategic site to gain whatever benefits it had. This was a good solution, but not really possible with wesnoth.

Basically, hover would be useless against elves (they all have ranged attacks which are generally better to use against bats anyways) and drakes(flame bait anyone?) Pretty powerful against northerners (assassins and archers are the only ones that could really unseat them, goblins being too weak in their ranged attacks.) Not too bad against other undead, but oddly bats couldn't kill bats and you generally need much more expensive units to hunt down the bats, etc...

It just really is too powerful in my opinion. I could perhaps see it on a very high level unit, but even then there would be serious balance issues.

[im the one you think of]

In any case, they can be bumped up to Level 1. The extra Upkeep might justify this unique ability. The Undead faction already has a Level 0 unit in the Walking Corpse anyway.

Plus it does cost 13 gold atm, which is more than some lvl1 units, I've thought it has been expensive for a while now, this would help it a bit. I think reducing its damage and making it level 1 would be enough, if the ability involved not being allowed to hover in villages/mountains.

[Noy]

No. Because of all the criticism laid here and the unit IS useful for scouting. Anybody remember the days when an undead could get some bats to take villages and just pump out WC? Its balanced.

So No.

Final Answer.

[Maeglin Dubh]

Topic will be left open for the express purpose of creating the code for such an ability for UMC purposes.

Any more posts about putting it on the Bat will be deleted on sight.

Thus Sayeth the Mod.

[IB]

So what about putting it on the Glider

[Maeglin Dubh]

Hilarious. You should be on Comedy Central. You're a real wit. A card, if you will.

I hope I don't have to deal with you.

Nothing more should be posted here, unless you actually have written the code for the hover ability, and even then you're probably better off starting a Hover thread in the WML Workshop.

[Baufo]

Find it hereif you want to try it. It has been about 5 minutes work of copying and pasting.