New terrain: forest village

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Haibane
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New terrain: forest village

Post by Haibane » September 23rd, 2006, 11:26 pm

I think it would be nice to have forest villages for elves.

1. If I'm right, elves are first of three factions which haven't any lvl1 unit with 70% defense in village. Second are drakes, but they have lack of defense as characteristic, and third are undeads, where is lack of defense compensated by high resistences against most common types of attacks.

2. Just elf archers and elf shamans have 70% defense in the forest.
While archers can be used as pretty good defense against ranged units, they are under average as melee defense. Shamans are more likely emergency defense. Even if they can be annoying with their slow as ranged defense, they are useless against melee - well, they can be pretty good against horde of skeletons in daylight, but that's special case.

3. Mapmakers can use forest village when they want. They can make map more elf friendly without adding more forest, which is most likely only another option (I mean to make it more friendly just for elves).
What's more, they won't make it more unfriendly for other factions, because there still will be village type of defense for them (like swamp village for land and water units).
-> well, another option is pure forest village, where just forest defense counts (like water village). I consider it extreme, but there can be also both options.

4. Town or village hidden in the forest, no roads, no cars, just quiet trees and pretty elf girls, nice vision, isn't it ? Don't you want to see one yourself ? :wink:
In another words, there is place for elvish villages in the world of Wesnoth, isn't it ?

We have (counting grass as standart) water, swamp, cave, desert, hill and mountain villages (maybe I forgot some) so I hope this would be possible. Unfortunately my drawings are scary, so I must hope for some interested, kind artist :P

I hope that everything is clear, despite my English and late hour when I'm typing it, sorry if not :roll:
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Post by TheLost1 » September 24th, 2006, 12:08 am

I like it, but you should really create a pic, it could be an edit of a standard village.
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Post by Dragon Master » September 24th, 2006, 2:39 am

I'm all for varied villages, but not for race specific ones. Have you noticed that no unit has greater than 60% on a village? The 8 hp a turn doesn't seem to also deserve 70% def. However, elven tree villages, undead bone houses, drake stone buildings/spires, and other such villages would be nice.

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Post by Assasin » September 24th, 2006, 2:42 am

My suggestion to you would be to take a forrest terrain, and attempt to put houses in them. Just brownish-green huts might do. With ropes.
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Post by Cuyo Quiz » September 24th, 2006, 3:48 am

Hard, as villages and tiles are on different scales. Something akin to the Great Tree could work, though.
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Post by Sapient » September 24th, 2006, 3:52 am

Dragon Master wrote:I'm all for varied villages, but not for race specific ones. Have you noticed that no unit has greater than 60% on a village?
Umm... mountain village?
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Post by Lord_Aether » September 24th, 2006, 6:06 am

Dragon Master wrote:Have you noticed that no unit has greater than 60% on a village?
Doesn't the fencer have 70% defense in village?
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Post by Haibane » September 24th, 2006, 10:30 am

A) There are some units with 70% defense in villages for sure. If you want them - orc assassin (northerners), fencer (loyalists), footpad, thief + dwarf fighter and dwarf thunderer in the mountain village (knalgan alliance is behind my idea).
I'm not making this idea from water, may I forgot something, but I'm sure about what I wrote.

B) There are race specific villages already, even elvish ones (imho it's just different graphic, what counts is terrain). But if I didn't miss it, there is not any forest village. Even if I said elvish village, I still mean forest village (aka "elvish" is not important, but elves and forest villages are something what goes well together for me). In this topic, I'm speaking only about forest villages, doesn't matter how I call them, so please pardon another labels.
Btw I wasn't so serious about my point #4, don't take it as the most important one (I don't like to say it, but sadly you won't see any elf girls anyway).

C) Forest villages can be helpful for units from another factions too, I forgot that. There can be more of them, but I remembered saurians (50% in village and 60% in forest). In the case of saurians it's imho also nice.

D) I didn't metion woses (20% village, 40% forest), but woses are rarely used for village defense, and 40% isn't really so much anyway. Similarly for elvish scouts, just defense is from 40% to 60% as in mountain villages (but use of scouts as village defenders is expensive hobby).

E) I'm not sure about ambush ability, it can but doesn't need to work in forest village, how is convenient for you and coders (my personal opinion is that it shouldn't work). Ambush in forest villages wasn't my intention, so I overlooked it. Sorry.


-> To be blunt, graphical side is not really so important for me. I'm more interested in gameplay effect - terrain with forest defense for forest friendly units and village defense for forest unfriendly units, with village movement.
I can try take some existing elf village and and great tree (I had this idea too) to make something like instant forest village (add water and leave for 50 years to complete). But I would like to leave it for someone more skilled (that should be almost anyone).
Well, if it's really so important and there is nobody else who can do it, I will do. I consider it worthless now, because there is not approval for my idea and I won't enchant anyone with my picture for sure.

Btw2 I'm going how manual says. I'm trying to explain you how great my idea is and get more people (most likely some developers) for it. If I have to make patch, consider it as lost case, sorry :P
Last edited by Haibane on September 24th, 2006, 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dragon Master » September 24th, 2006, 12:41 pm

ok ok, very few units have greater than 60% defence on villages.

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Post by Haibane » September 24th, 2006, 1:09 pm

Exactly six at first level, I don't know about next levels. That's almost like one faction (or like drakes faction), so it's not so small number (almost 1/6 of all units). I want to add next two. Also what's important is existence, not numbers. There is hardly reason to reject something because there are too few similar cases.

What's more, I don't want to increase defense of any unit, I just want to make terrain where better defense can be used, as in the case of dwarves and mountain villages. That's big difference, because you don't need to use terrain which you don't like in your maps.
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Post by Mythological » September 24th, 2006, 1:33 pm

The forest villages would be useful for map makers. It would definitly be a nice feature for the map makers.
I was thinking about the same idea as halbane several times, but knowing how hard is it to make your idea happen I never bothered to open the issue in the forums
There would be 4 units which would benfit from forest villages and they are all rebel units : elf archer, elf scout , shaman and the wose ( woses wouldnt realy benefit from forest villages but they would still have better defense there ). After all, as halbane wrote, dwarves benefit from hill and mountain villages, saurians benefit from hill/mountain/swamp villages ; why not have villages where elves would get additional benefit - after all their faction is based on high defense units
Reality wise one may argue that forest villages are not good cause you have to remove the forest prior to building a village there, but gameplay wise it is a very good idea ( maybe the village sprites should be made in a way that the village is actualy a part of the forest ). I hope it gets implemented...or on the other hand we might try to try making it ourselves. Sapient, Halbane are you willing to give it a try ?
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Haibane
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Post by Haibane » September 24th, 2006, 2:02 pm

Mythological wrote:There would be 4 units which would benfit from forest villages and they are all rebel units : elf archer, elf scout , shaman and the wose ( woses wouldnt realy benefit from forest villages but they would still have better defense there ).
Well, as I said also saurians and possible next units, but sure, it's mainly good for elves.
Mythological wrote:Reality wise one may argue that forest villages are not good cause you have to remove the forest prior to building ...
We can believe that it's not true in the case of elves (as you said, village is part of the forest) and just few trees at the worst places are removed.
Mythological wrote:I hope it gets implemented...or on the other hand we might try to try making it ourselves. Sapient, Halbane are you willing to give it a try ?
Sure, I will be happy if I will be able to help, but I dunno how I can be useful. If there is some simple work which can be done without extra skills, count with me. I can make green hex or so :P

Btw I'm haibane, not halbane :roll:
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Post by Mythological » September 24th, 2006, 2:33 pm

Haibane wrote: Btw I'm haibane, not halbane :roll:
Sorry about that Haibane...
Anyway, its gonna be a lot of work making the tile itself is the lesser part of the job
All those transitions to adjacent combinations of tiles are gonna be a problem. I never made treain graphicks before, only unit graphics
Plus, I am not sure how the code part for adding new terain type can be done. If it would be necessary that the game engine has to be patched, then that is a programers work ( work for someone like Sapient, not for one like me )
So lets wait for the responce from sapient ( he is from US so he prolly wont be online till late afternoon )
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Post by Tux2B » September 24th, 2006, 4:05 pm

Having a special wood village (I mean with special stats) maybe wouldn't be such a good idea, but one thing that the map editor really lacks is a forest village.
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Post by Sapient » September 24th, 2006, 6:07 pm

The main problem with this idea is that we don't have very many terrain letters left for new terrain types. I remember Darth Fool was working on a multi-letter terrain system, but I haven't heard much from him about it lately. Also, if you have forest village, that means you will probably also need snow forest village and jungle village.

You don't need to make any changes to the Wesnoth engine to make your own forest village terrain, but you would probably have to do it for a UMC instead of mainline because of the dwindling number of terrain letters.

The only coding involved would be a little bit of TerrainWML for the transitions. There are tutorials for creating terrains on the wiki here.
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