Mage trait: Astute

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7241
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Mage trait: Astute

Post by Jetrel » September 17th, 2006, 4:50 am

Or "Clever" possibly. A trait given *only* to magic-using units.

Possibilities:
• functions like dextrous for mages
or
• Reduces (for the ranged attack) damage-per-strike slightly, but adds an additional strike; enough that the unit does very little more damage overall, but does have a higher chance to do some damage to the enemy, since it has another chance to hit them. (Simply adding another strike would be far too powerful). I've proposed this second thing quite a while ago, IIRC.

It also might be nice to, only for the mages, *replace* strong with this trait, since strong is much less useful for them than it is for most other units.

Lord_Aether
Posts: 127
Joined: November 11th, 2005, 9:06 am
Location: California

Post by Lord_Aether » September 18th, 2006, 4:47 pm

I like the second choice, since the first just copies another trait in the game. Mages are supposedly a speccialized unit, and it would be nice to have a trait that helps them.
Mac OS X 10.5.7
Wesnoth 1.6.2

PingPangQui
Posts: 267
Joined: July 18th, 2006, 11:52 am

Post by PingPangQui » September 18th, 2006, 5:24 pm

Yeah nice idea - The only mages for which "strong" is more or less usefull, is the "Mage of Light" in the first place, the "Necro" (from level 2 upwards), the red mages line (any), the saurian mages (any) and the elvish shaman (any level) - ok that were quite a bit. However, the proposed trait would be much more usefull for them.

P.S.: I always thought that the silver mage should also get a third melee strike since those guys are supposed to travel around alot and might have to deal with many different situations in which they have to use their staff. But thats another idea.

kilder
Translator
Posts: 71
Joined: January 18th, 2004, 3:47 pm
Location: somewhere in spain

Post by kilder » September 18th, 2006, 7:55 pm

What would happen with units that start as non magic users but then they develop the magical skills? I'm thinking of the elvish shaman, specially, but I'm pretty sure there are (or maybe there will be).

User avatar
Jetrel
Art Director
Posts: 7241
Joined: February 23rd, 2004, 3:36 am
Location: Midwest US

Post by Jetrel » September 18th, 2006, 9:18 pm

kilder wrote:What would happen with units that start as non magic users but then they develop the magical skills? I'm thinking of the elvish shaman, specially, but I'm pretty sure there are (or maybe there will be).
The elvish shaman is considered a magic-using unit at level-1. The entangle effect might not have the "magic" flag on it, but it is magical in nature.

User avatar
Temuchin Khan
Posts: 1715
Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 6:35 pm
Location: Player 6 on the original Agaia map

Post by Temuchin Khan » September 19th, 2006, 12:23 am

I vote for the second idea, and I vote for calling it "astute." "Astute" just seems to fit better with mages, somehow.

Flametrooper
Posts: 984
Joined: February 21st, 2006, 11:02 pm
Location: 0x466C616D65

Post by Flametrooper » September 19th, 2006, 3:07 am

So, like, a 7-3 Mage would become 6-4? (max damages go from 21 to 24) That seems almost a bit powerful; but then 5-4 would actually reduce the maximum damage. A Dark Adept, then would go 10-2 to 7-3, that makes sense; an Elvish Shaman (do they count as mages?) would basically just switch 3-2 to 2-3 (or 3-3, that is not, in their case, very overpowering since theyre so weak.) Expand to higher levels, and you have a Red Mage: 8-4 becomes either 6-5 for 2 less max damage or 7-5 for 3 more max damage. The Dark Sorcerer's 13-2 transforms to 9-3 for 1 more max damage.
As a percentage...well 7 is 70% of 10 and 5 is about 71 percent of 7; 6 is 75% of 8, and 9 is 69ish% of 13. Averaged, you have 71.25, or about 71, percent of damage is retained; or to put it another way, approximately 29% of damage would be reduced.
So...in essence, the unit would lose about 30% damage per attack on ranged attacks and gain an extra attack. Interesting. I like it!
hey.

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel » September 19th, 2006, 4:34 am

I suggest making it function identically to Dextrous, and having it replace Strong. And overall, yes, I think it's a good idea to have a few class-only traits like this, now we have a flexible trait system.

"Astute" is also a good choice of word. It combines intelligence with practicality, and seems like it would be a valuable quality for a mage in times of war.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Lord_Aether
Posts: 127
Joined: November 11th, 2005, 9:06 am
Location: California

Post by Lord_Aether » September 19th, 2006, 4:40 am

Sangel wrote:I suggest making it function identically to Dextrous, and having it replace Strong. And overall, yes, I think it's a good idea to have a few class-only traits like this, now we have a flexible trait system.

"Astute" is also a good choice of word. It combines intelligence with practicality, and seems like it would be a valuable quality for a mage in times of war.
But I don't think that we should just have a trait be the same as another trait, there is no point. Just give mages dextrous and have done with it, then. I think that replacing strong could be the way to go, a lot of people seem to not like strong mages.
Mac OS X 10.5.7
Wesnoth 1.6.2

Oreb
Posts: 1278
Joined: September 9th, 2005, 12:30 am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Post by Oreb » September 19th, 2006, 11:56 am

I prefer the second choice, and I beleive that the new overall damge should not eqaute more than +1 of the original overall damage. Otherwise that is overpowering. It would end up being like a dextrous x3 effect.

It seems that the Dev's are the only ones who can suggest a new trait and not get flamed to the ground.

Or is that just Jetryl?
Since he can make Meta-Threads and has alot of exceptions in the forums. :P
I am Oreb, Lord of the Darthien
Give your comments to the World of Orbivm

User avatar
JW
Posts: 5046
Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW » September 19th, 2006, 3:39 pm

Problems:
#1) Traits are determined by race, not class
#2) How would this* affect the DA v Mage v Augr (v Shaman) (the only level 1 magic users)? And how would it be coded?
#3) Can Shamans be Astute/Dextrous?



*this meaning: "Reduces (for the ranged attack) damage-per-strike slightly, but adds an additional strike; enough that the unit does very little more damage overall, but does have a higher chance to do some damage to the enemy, since it has another chance to hit them. "

TheLost1
Posts: 154
Joined: April 9th, 2006, 1:12 am

Post by TheLost1 » September 24th, 2006, 12:13 am

@Jw you could create a mage race, no-one would see it.

And would 5-4 be weaker than 6-3, when you hit sevent percent of the time? It would lower the max damage but raise the average damage.

I think that replacing strong would be a bad idea, though.
The dragons are all colour-coded,
Some consider this system outmoded.
This was not preordained
Gary Gygax explained,
"My box of Crayolas exploded."

Lord_Aether
Posts: 127
Joined: November 11th, 2005, 9:06 am
Location: California

Post by Lord_Aether » September 24th, 2006, 5:59 am

TheLost1 wrote:And would 5-4 be weaker than 6-3, when you hit sevent percent of the time? It would lower the max damage but raise the average damage.
5x4 = 20
6x3=18

Doesn't lower the max damage. :roll:
Mac OS X 10.5.7
Wesnoth 1.6.2

User avatar
Maeglin Dubh
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 1154
Joined: November 16th, 2005, 8:38 pm
Location: Valley of the Shadow of Death
Contact:

Post by Maeglin Dubh » September 24th, 2006, 5:59 pm

You forgot to factor in the 70% CTH. Whether or not that makes a difference, I'm not sure. I'm not feeling well enough to do math.
Cuyo Quiz wrote:I really should push for Temuchin's brainstorming with all my might someday, when the skies are cloudy, the winds dance and the light is free to roam over the soil along the fog.

TheLost1
Posts: 154
Joined: April 9th, 2006, 1:12 am

Post by TheLost1 » September 24th, 2006, 6:06 pm

it does, we can round 70 to 75 which means that most of the time there will be three hits.
The dragons are all colour-coded,
Some consider this system outmoded.
This was not preordained
Gary Gygax explained,
"My box of Crayolas exploded."

Post Reply