Unit Idea: goblin pillager L1 version

Website · Post by **Sapient** » August 17th, 2006, 3:26 am

Ok, I think we can all agree that the orc archer does a ton of fire damage against undead and it is a lovely unit. However, I think it would be nice (for reasons I leave to your imagination and don't care to explain again) if the Northerners had an alternative fire-based unit-- one that has less damage but either: A) more mobility or B) a cheaper price

My B) proposal a.k.a. "Goblin Torcher" was met with some resistance by the MP devs, so here's my next attempt. This time an A) proposal.

The idea, simply stated, is split the goblin pillager line from the goblin knight line, then introduce an L1 unit that advances to the goblin pillager. This would prevent the standard wolfrider from gaining additional power, because wolfrider is already a nicely balanced unit that comes in handy against the deads.

It would be weaker to pierce and impact than the wolfrider, or possibly it would just have less hp. Thoughts?

CuddleFish · Post by **CuddleFish** » August 17th, 2006, 12:04 pm

i agree that orcs need more punch against undead...

yes.. those archers pwn ghosts at night...
but only if they dont miss

now that ghosts got drain.. you cant just ZOC them and swarm them with orcs... you risk giving them more hp and even levelling them up

orcs are a sentient and intelligent race, if i recall correctly they should have some kind of shaman based religion...
a holy unit wont be so bad for the orcs, but it would have to be very weak of course... or else it'll end up like a white mage

FleshPeeler · Post by **FleshPeeler** » August 17th, 2006, 12:23 pm

It's not that I'm against the idea, but "Nay" on splitting Pillager from the Wolfrider line. I've been meaning to draw up some diagrams concerning the current advancement system. I feel it's incomplete because some factions have many more advancements than others, and some even go beyond L3. Removing a branch from Wolfriders:

1) means that only the Troll Whelp will have alternate upgrade paths. Currently there are ONLY TWO units in the Northerner faction that gives you multiple choices.

2) means that Wolfriders will lose that dynamic touch that I love about them. They are the only scout units in the game who get an alternate upgrade path. This is something that makes Northerners unique.

Besides . . . if you want a Goblin fire-archer, why would it upgrade to Pillager? The attacks don't synch up at all.

Yes, I realize that I said something about moving the Pillager to a new unit in the other thread and I am now contradicting myself. Upon further thought on the implications I retract my support for the idea (In fact, that's part of the reason I voluntarily pulled out of the Torcher argument).

CuddleFish wrote: orcs are a sentient and intelligent race, if i recall correctly they should have some kind of shaman based religion...
a holy unit wont be so bad for the orcs, but it would have to be very weak of course... or else it'll end up like a white mage

In a Northerner campaign from 1.0.2 (I think it was removed from 1.1.7, I'll check again) there were shamen. I don't understand why one was not introduced to mainline, even if those particular shaman units there weren't that useful.

I don't think that Holy is appropriate for the Orcs, nor do I even think Northerners need a healing unit (That would really change their style and help the hoarde rush too much) but a fire mage would be interesting, so long as the expense balanced it such that it was possible only to have a few on your line.

(Disclaimer: When I say something is "interesting," it means I think it could be favorable but definitely needs more discussion first. I realize I use the term this way often without ever making myself clear about that)

Dragon Master · Post by **Dragon Master** » August 17th, 2006, 1:38 pm

Why not keep the pillager in the line and also have a unit that levels up to it? Where is the problem there?

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » August 17th, 2006, 2:16 pm

I thought the previous idea was cooler, as a weakened Pillager is just a weakened Pillager. It's not as interesting.

FleshPeeler wrote:1) means that only the Troll Whelp will have alternate upgrade paths. Currently there are ONLY TWO units in the Northerner faction that gives you multiple choices.

Three. Goblin Spearman --> Goblin Impaler OR Goblin Rouser. Then again Goblins generally aren't the most likely units to have leveling up.

Oddly enough, the Knalgans don't branch at all and yet they feel more complete to me than the Northerners ever have. It's not any tangible I can put my finger on so much as a vague feeling of "is something missing here?" Perhaps it's a side effect of growing up as the standard campaign badguy.

Now before I get any more off topic: In a nutshell, I'm not exactly opposed to a L1 Pillager, but the idea doesn't intrigue me as much as the Torcher did.

Temuchin Khan · Post by **Temuchin Khan** » August 17th, 2006, 2:38 pm

Master Stilgar wrote:I thought the previous idea was cooler, as a weakened Pillager is just a weakened Pillager. It's not as interesting.

Agreed.

Master Stilgar wrote:Oddly enough, the Knalgans don't branch at all and yet they feel more complete to me than the Northerners ever have. It's not any tangible I can put my finger on so much as a vague feeling of "is something missing here?" Perhaps it's a side effect of growing up as the standard campaign badguy.

I guess nobody really expects variety from Dwarves, just dependability.

Master Stilgar wrote:Now before I get any more off topic: In a nutshell, I'm not exactly opposed to a L1 Pillager, but the idea doesn't intrigue me as much as the Torcher did.

Besides, most of those who resisted Sapient's original proposal were not opposed to the Torcher per se, but only to the idea of making it a recruitable unit. I recall Turin and several others stating in that thread that they would like the idea as an alternate upgrade for the Goblin Spearman. So would I.

Cuyo Quiz · Post by **Cuyo Quiz** » August 17th, 2006, 3:41 pm

*goes on a tangent*

Change the Orcish Archer blade attack to a torch (what can i say, i'm a man of ideas). And if you want rationalizations...

He needs something to light up his arrows.
It further segreggates him (as per the description), by remarking on the fact he doesn't do swordmanship (like a goblin, and i remember someone wanting to rename it Goblin Archer to avoid confusion with "runts" and globins).
It would give him an attack type which few resist, therefore making him more tactical, since he is sorta low hp.

You may modify hp, cost, and most definitely the torch damage if this is met with contempt.

CuddleFish · Post by **CuddleFish** » August 17th, 2006, 5:01 pm

yeah.. goblin archer makes more sense

orcs HATE ranged weapons..

Post by **deserter** » August 17th, 2006, 5:17 pm

Cuyo Quiz wrote:*goes on a tangent*

Change the Orcish Archer blade attack to a torch (what can i say, i'm a man of ideas). And if you want rationalizations...

He needs something to light up his arrows.
It further segreggates him (as per the description), by remarking on the fact he doesn't do swordmanship (like a goblin, and i remember someone wanting to rename it Goblin Archer to avoid confusion with "runts" and globins).
It would give him an attack type which few resist, therefore making him more tactical, since he is sorta low hp.

You may modify hp, cost, and most definitely the torch damage if this is met with contempt.

I think this is the best of these ideas yet.

Of course they would be more vulnerable to Drakes, but I don't see that as a big problem. Also fire be useful against their (Drake's) counterparts Saurians. That durely compensates a bit.

Post by **turin** » August 17th, 2006, 5:38 pm

Don't fix what aint broke seems to be the motto of the balance team. In this case, I agree with them. I don't think a new recruitable unit is necessary or desirable.

Flametrooper · Post by **Flametrooper** » August 17th, 2006, 6:12 pm

A goblin with a torch advancing from a goblin spearman is my favorite of these ideas.
(But, if you're having problems with Northerners vs. Undead, you can read JW's How To Play guide, or ask around for some tips. In my opinion, Northerners are okay balanced to Undead - trolls supported by archers work pretty well.)

Post by **Darth Fool** » August 17th, 2006, 7:22 pm

I think having a goblin spearman (lvl 0) -> goblin torcher (lvl 1) -> goblin pillager idea is the best. I would still allow the wolf-rider -> pillager advancement as well. Have the torcher have two attacks, the torch attack and a net/slow attack like the pillager, but slightly weaker and without the speed/HP of the pillager.

JW · Post by JW » August 17th, 2006, 7:36 pm

I kinda like the Archer's melee to Fire idea...though I haven't thought over the numbers at all, so it could really suck and I wouldn't know it yet.

The Goblin advancing to a Fire-wielder would basically be worthless against Undead by the way.....how's the dang thing going to level in the first place??

-edit-
oh, with that being said, I don't think it really need to be changed. Archers are already useful enough against Undead that you should have a few anyway.

-edit2-
the Fire melee on Archer would actually make Northies more 1-dimensional against Undead, as Archers would be even more useful against skeles as well. If the attack were changed to Fire it would need to be weakened. If it's 3-2 now it would need to be like 2-2 or something.

Again, I haven't thought about it at all, so don't think I'm decided yet.

Website · Post by **Sapient** » August 17th, 2006, 8:30 pm

I was excited when I saw how many replies there were, but most of these replies are off-topic to the proposal.

So far the only feedback I see is:
1) not as interesting (a.k.a. "fun") as previous proposal
2) dislike, just use orc archer

I'll wager that there are some talented MPers out there who agree with me with the need for another recruitable fire-unit, but for now I admit defeat.

Temuchin Khan · Post by **Temuchin Khan** » August 18th, 2006, 5:22 am

Sapient wrote:I was excited when I saw how many replies there were, but most of these replies are off-topic to the proposal.

So far the only feedback I see is:
1) not as interesting (a.k.a. "fun") as previous proposal
2) dislike, just use orc archer

I'll wager that there are some talented MPers out there who agree with me with the need for another recruitable fire-unit, but for now I admit defeat.

Not a complete defeat, only a partial defeat. Remember that though people were not willing to consider your specific proposal in all its details, they were willing to consider some similar ideas. You got people thinking about new possibilities, and that's always a partial success.