Trait/ability proposal: Fierce

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Jgrr
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Trait/ability proposal: Fierce

Post by Jgrr » August 14th, 2006, 7:15 am

Have you ever tried fighting a wounded bear?

The trait/ability Fierce would be:

* If unit is reduced to 50% of HP or below, it gains +1 melee damage
* If unit is reduced to 25% of HP or below, it gains +2 melee damage

This trait/ability would be the most effective when used by animals, monsters or Saurians. This is an useful trait for sure, but even if it combines with Strong for +3 damage (!), it is very hard to exploít - a unit with 25% of HP remaining should not be fighting anyway, at least not in the offense. For reasons easily understandable, this trait/ability should never be given to units with Charge or Berserk, and probably also not to units with First Strike.

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov » August 14th, 2006, 7:33 am

I'm probably the only one, but I actually like this. Sounds like it would suit Orcs ;).

A couple of things though:
Is it really desirable to have a trait that is only beneficial when your unit is half dead?
And the big killer...(dramatic music)...balance.

Free
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Post by Free » August 14th, 2006, 7:38 am

I personally don't jump at this idea because I don't think it sounds realistic.

I've never tried to fight a wounded bear actually (believe it or not), but I really don't think it would fight me better than a bear that isn't wounded.

So if a unit gets down to 1 hp it's going to fight better, better than a unit with full hp?

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Post by Rhuvaen » August 14th, 2006, 9:10 am

A complicated version of strong nerfed to being useless? Why?

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Post by jg » August 14th, 2006, 11:28 am

Free wrote:I personally don't jump at this idea because I don't think it sounds realistic.

I've never tried to fight a wounded bear actually (believe it or not), but I really don't think it would fight me better than a bear that isn't wounded.

So if a unit gets down to 1 hp it's going to fight better, better than a unit with full hp?
You are probably thinking this isn't realistic because you are looking at it from the viewpoint of a human (who would not fight better), but looking at a little more animal-like unit's, I can believe it easily since when driven into a corner and wounded, fight in a much more furious way than when they for example attack themselves.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » August 14th, 2006, 12:32 pm

Free wrote:I've never tried to fight a wounded bear actually (believe it or not), but I really don't think it would fight me better than a bear that isn't wounded.
You really don't know anything about wounded bears. :)
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s

Post by Dragon Master » August 14th, 2006, 12:52 pm

bears aside, I'm not partial to this idea. The idea of a unit fighting better when injured doesn't seem worth the risk of getting a few extra attack points for half my health. Mayb echange it so that it only gets a bonus if the enemy unit in combat has more health?

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Re: s

Post by Jgrr » August 14th, 2006, 1:09 pm

Dragon Master wrote:bears aside, I'm not partial to this idea. The idea of a unit fighting better when injured doesn't seem worth the risk of getting a few extra attack points for half my health. Mayb echange it so that it only gets a bonus if the enemy unit in combat has more health?
OK, to clarify the original idea:

The wounded bear is a creature so fierce that any hunter would hesitate to attack it. I don't expect anyone to deliberately get his unit wounded to exploit this ability, I'd rather think it to be used defensively and pre-emptively, since the enemy would have to pay a higher cost to kill the unit.

Alternate form of the ability: The unit deals +x damage on defense only (x = 2 if trait)

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turin
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Post by turin » August 14th, 2006, 2:36 pm

1. I think it works much better as an ability than as a trait, mainly because it seems to really change how the unit is used, which traits are supposed to not do.

2. I think it would work best for an enemy monster-type unit, like a dragon, frost giant, sea serpent, etc.

3. It should, IIRC, be already doable using the swarm code but flipping it from reducing damage to increasing damage.
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Post by FleshPeeler » August 14th, 2006, 8:02 pm

I know what you're talking about. There is an implementation of this trait in the tabletop mini-click game Mage Knight.

Mage Knight uses a click-down system to tell a unit's stats as it takes damage. Generally, every time your unit is injured you click down X times (X being damage taken). The unit's stats change as it takes damage, normally becoming weaker until demoralized (unable to attack, can be captured) or killed. Were- creatures, on the other hand, boast an incredible boost of strength once they've taken 2 or 3 clicks of damage - for a few more clicks it might continue to get stronger - but after that point they start to deteriorate and weaken like a normal unit.

The idea itself isn't entirely bad, but I think it is flawed. Also, the minor damage increase isn't too unique. Most people stop fighting with a unit once it drops below 50% HP because the loss of that unit gives the other player valuable XP. This ability would fall into disuse because it tries to give you incentive to hand extra XP to your foe.
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Chris NS
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Post by Chris NS » August 14th, 2006, 9:54 pm

Not sure if this would work better, but I imagine a more likely effect of wounding an enrageable creature would be to charge and attack the assaliant. Perhaps you could have units than, when wounded (or wounded below a certain level) have all meelee attacks changed to "charge".

Of course, there's programming issues, and I'm not sure whether this would add to gameplay. And we need to bear in mind than one unit usually symbolises a whole group of units.

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Post by irrevenant » August 14th, 2006, 9:59 pm

Perhaps it could give an extra attack if you fall beneath, say 9hp?

Then it's not a nerfed version of Strong, but simultaneously it's going to be a risky thing to use...

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Post by Temuchin Khan » August 14th, 2006, 10:02 pm

Chris NS wrote:Not sure if this would work better, but I imagine a more likely effect of wounding an enrageable creature would be to charge and attack the assaliant. Perhaps you could have units than, when wounded (or wounded below a certain level) have all meelee attacks changed to "charge".

Of course, there's programming issues, and I'm not sure whether this would add to gameplay. And we need to bear in mind than one unit usually symbolises a whole group of units.
But that would make it more likely for the wounded unit to die, given that it would be taking double damage!

And irrevenant's suggestion would seem to have the same problem as the original of being rarely used, except perhaps defensively.

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Post by turin » August 14th, 2006, 10:37 pm

When the unit gets down to 9 HP, and then heals so he is over 9 HP, does he lose the attack?
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Post by FleshPeeler » August 14th, 2006, 10:50 pm

irrevenant wrote:Perhaps it could give an extra attack if you fall beneath, say 9hp?

Then it's not a nerfed version of Strong, but simultaneously it's going to be a risky thing to use...
What good is that if the unit has so few HP left that it probably wouldn't survive the combat long enough to use its extra attack? This would only benefit cases where the opponent has really bad luck.

. . . Or a low-HP Thunderer. *shivers* Please, no.
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