pay to play for Wesnoth

[FleshPeeler]

Split from Warbands thread -mod

ps. I've also been thinking that this could be a great way to gain income for the BfW project (say either by requiring a small monthly fee - like $0.5-1 for all players or a larger fee for somee nice extra functions that don't really matter - like the idea of being able to play for fun games with all reacll lists - and others like that - like possibility to create guilds, topic-clubs and having an own - as in closed - forum/chat)

I know I'm not a coder (yet . . . still working on that), but I DO know enough about Open Source to know that your suggestion violates one of the central foundations of the Open Source movement. Profit is only gained through donations. Do you want BfW to become known as the first P2P Open Source project?

Anyway, on topic . . . I don't like this idea for one sole reason; Massive lag. I've seen how long my Recall list gets in Campaigns. Imagine EVERY unit you've EVER recruited in EVERY MP game you've EVER played simultaneously loading every turn you want to use that. Now imagine that times 2 for 1v1 . . . times 4 for 2v2 . . . times 6 for 3v3.

Yeah, you're going to tell me "People should clean out their Recall list, then we wouldn't have that problem!" Should guarantees nothing. I work in IT services for a group of steel companies near the Great Lakes. People should clear out their inboxes on a regular basis, but noooo . . . do you want to know how often we have to manually dig into their mailbox and clean out the 50,000+ e-mails that they've accumulated from the day they started working here because nobody knows about that mysterious "Delete" button?

Maybe I shouldn't post from work so much for fear of rant, but the point is this would not work out well simply due to the extreme load.

[turin]

ps. I've also been thinking that this could be a great way to gain income for the BfW project (say either by requiring a small monthly fee - like $0.5-1 for all players or a larger fee for somee nice extra functions that don't really matter - like the idea of being able to play for fun games with all reacll lists - and others like that - like possibility to create guilds, topic-clubs and having an own - as in closed - forum/chat)

This is, quite possibly, the worst fundraising idea I have ever heard...

[Kiba]

ps. I've also been thinking that this could be a great way to gain income for the BfW project (say either by requiring a small monthly fee - like $0.5-1 for all players or a larger fee for somee nice extra functions that don't really matter - like the idea of being able to play for fun games with all reacll lists - and others like that - like possibility to create guilds, topic-clubs and having an own - as in closed - forum/chat)

I know I'm not a coder (yet . . . still working on that), but I DO know enough about Open Source to know that your suggestion violates one of the central foundations of the Open Source movement. Profit is only gained through donations. Do you want BfW to become known as the first P2P Open Source project?

WTF are you talking about?

The open source movement and free software movement have no such rules.

The only rules it state is that the source code should be open for anybody to study, modify, or distribute the source code. This mean you cannot limit the source code to non-profit distribution only or say you can only gain profits via donation. That is a violation to the rule.

Profits can be gained in anyway as long as they don't violate the license of which the project choosen.

[turin]

And since it is open source, anyone could start their own server and provide those services free. Meaning no one would actually pay for us to provide them.

Like I said, Worst Fundraising Idea Ever.

[tsr]

And since it is open source, anyone could start their own server and provide those services free. Meaning no one would actually pay for us to provide them.

Like I said, Worst Fundraising Idea Ever.

Why so, I think there are three things that are to 'our' advadvantage:
1. people allready donate to this project why would they stop just because they gain some extra feature?
2. 'we' allready have a userbase, those things take time/money to build up
3. 'we' will be first with it and so supposedly be able to transfer some of the fanbase from the current server to this server.
4. (bonus) - I think it could really attrackt a bunch of players from other games that are used to pay2play and that consider no-pay=bad-game.

But I'm not saying that it is a good idea either, just not the worst.

/tsr

[irrevenant]

And since it is open source, anyone could start their own server and provide those services free. Meaning no one would actually pay for us to provide them.
Like I said, Worst Fundraising Idea Ever.

Nope (though it's a bad idea for other reasons). Open Source operations often make money selling stuff that's freely available; Debian CDs for example. That's because people frequently like supporting projects they enjoy. Homo Sapiens != Homo Economicus.

Yeah, you're going to tell me "People should clean out their Recall list, then we wouldn't have that problem!"

Actually, I wouldn't. That's exactly the sort of mindless busywork that the computer should be doing for people.

Perhaps units with minimal chance of recall (say, less than 8 xp) should be shunted automatically to a second screen? (You could access it by clicking on an appropriate button in the recall dialogue).

[Jgrr]

Actually, tournaments or leagues with a reasonable, small entrance fee is not a bad idea at all in general. The reasons are obvious:

* Less quitters, since quitting means forfeiting your entrance fee.
* Better possibility for moderation
* Fame, glory and monetary gains for the winner.
* I probably shouldn't be saying this, but: less '1337' teenagers (unless papa pays).

Think of a 1vs1 KO tourney for 128 players with $1 entrance fee, $20 first price, $10 second price. While not exactly a source of income, this could be done for example by a student to earn some bread money.

[FleshPeeler]

Actually, tournaments or leagues with a reasonable, small entrance fee is not a bad idea at all in general. The reasons are obvious:

* Less quitters, since quitting means forfeiting your entrance fee.
* Better possibility for moderation
* Fame, glory and monetary gains for the winner.
* I probably shouldn't be saying this, but: less '1337' teenagers (unless papa pays).

Think of a 1vs1 KO tourney for 128 players with $1 entrance fee, $20 first price, $10 second price. While not exactly a source of income, this could be done for example by a student to earn some bread money.

Works for a personal LAN tournament (I've run Super Smash Bros. Melee tournaments to raise money for paintball before) but I don't want to see such a feature become such that everybody has to use it.

There's no need to incorporate admission into the program. If you want to run a tournament and demand money, do the management on your own end.

3. 'we' will be first with it and so supposedly be able to transfer some of the fanbase from the current server to this server.

Why are you insisting that Wesnoth become not only the first P2P Open Source game, but the first P2P turn-based strategy game??

4. (bonus) - I think it could really attrackt a bunch of players from other games that are used to pay2play and that consider no-pay=bad-game.

People are not attracted to giving away money!!

Take a look at the games that are Pay-to-Play. They're all MMORPGs. The reason they are Pay-to-Play is because upkeep of their servers is very expensive, and the initial investment of the game is not enough to offset the cost on the server side. Fans of P2P are primarily MMORPG players because that's the only market where it's been implemented successfully.

Wesnoth is NOT an MMORPG so you are wrong in assuming that the P2P crowd would be attracted to the game.

[turin]

I, for one, though I love Wesnoth, would never pay for something like that if it was available for free. I'm fine with donating to the project. There's a huge difference, IMHO, between that and paying for extra capabilities in the game.

[scott]

Why so, I think there are three things that are to 'our' advadvantage:
1. people allready donate to this project why would they stop just because they gain some extra feature?
2. 'we' allready have a userbase, those things take time/money to build up
3. 'we' will be first with it and so supposedly be able to transfer some of the fanbase from the current server to this server.
4. (bonus) - I think it could really attrackt a bunch of players from other games that are used to pay2play and that consider no-pay=bad-game.

But I'm not saying that it is a good idea either, just not the worst.

/tsr

Why are you assuming the project is interested in attracting players? It's not. The primary goal of this project is and has always been to create a fun, open source, turn-based, strategy game pleasing to the developers. Others are invited to play and/or contribute according to their pleasure.

This pretty much IS the worst idea someone could have come up with. Establishing a financial relationship with players obligates the developer team to them, violating the fundamental principle upon which the project was created. Good job.

[tsr]

I'm glad to see that there is some support for discussing some kind of system for being able to recall in MP and thus keeping the IMHO best thing with SP campaigns - the army building.

As for the rest of you I'm intrigued that my little ps could be so provocative, I'll try to adress some of the arguments:
(sry I'm not quoting properly, I'm under a bit of time-pressure, if you request it I'll get back and edit my post accordingyl)

- why pay when you can have it for free?
You don't have to, my idea is based on the pressumtion that all payments are like donations only you get some fun extra functionality that doesn't really matter (the idea is shamelessly stolen from hattrick.org a football manager game that implements that kind of funding. They had when I stopped playing - one year ago - a userbase of 1.000.000 and about 10-15% payed around $20 yearly for some extra functionality)

- It will never work, because ...
Ok, I'll believe you, I know [censored] about economy in or out a OS environment, but someone said it's like supporting other projects, like buying debian caps, etc

- We don't want to make an income if it bounds us to the will of the users
Ok, valid point, but you do know there are a bunch of ways to set this up, so that that will never need to happen?

- We don't want new players
Oh, you don't, do you? Well I don't believe you. I believe that you don't want new players at the expense of loosing old trustworthy, fun, friendly players as yourself (this is aimed at scott and not ironic). But at some point everyone but Dave was a new player.

Ok, that's it for now.

/tsr

ps. Scott I wonder if you could use your mod powers to split this thread so that the interresting topic of army building in MP doesn't dissapear just because I and others can't stop ourselves from reacting on OT stuff.

[turin]

- We don't want new players
Oh, you don't, do you? Well I don't believe you. I believe that you don't want new players at the expense of loosing old trustworthy, fun, friendly players as yourself (this is aimed at scott and not ironic). But at some point everyone but Dave was a new player.

Well, you're wrong. We don't want new players. We don't not want new players, but we don't want them either - we are indifferent towards them. We DO want new contributors, and there is a sort of correlation between new players and new contributors, but it is a loose one. And the kind of players who would be attracted by pay-to-play (if they even exist) wouldn't be the kind who would become new contributors.

[scott]

- We don't want new players
Oh, you don't, do you? Well I don't believe you. I believe that you don't want new players at the expense of loosing old trustworthy, fun, friendly players as yourself (this is aimed at scott and not ironic). But at some point everyone but Dave was a new player.

Yes, you're right. What the heck do I know? Probably nothing.

The project is happy to attract players and contributors, but if the game did not attract any, it would be fine. The project would still have been successful in meeting its goals. We do get the word out because we think people will enjoy playing it, and this is consistent with the paraphrased mission: make a game that is fun for the developers to play, and if others like it too, then great. The dev team is mostly made up of players who have become developers, but this isn't relevant. It's like saying the US Constitution protects its citizens and not non-citizens, but once an immigrant becomes a citizen, the Constitution protects him too.

[Noy]

This quite simply is maybe one of the most idiotic threads I've seen in Wesnoth. Really I don't have much more to say than to agree with what turin scott and flesh have said. But there is something I want to post about.... I'm going into Rant mode.

[Rant mode on]

You know what ticks me off more than anything else? Its when I have to wade into really ridiculous threads like this and sort it out. People like you tsr who come in here and post whatever idiotic idea that comes to mind, and argue it to ad nauseum, then repeat for thread after thread.

It bothers me when new people who come in here thinking they have all the answers and then telling people who certainly know better than them what wesnoth is about... These are often devs that have spent years working on this game, and thinking about these problems and how to make it better. But what the hell do we know?

I often hear from people that if we don't make more functionalality, better balance, whatever the game will fall apart. Everything I see goes against such statements. wesnoth isn't a pay game, it never was, and it probably never will be, and thats great. More people play wesnoth now than before, and the community is thriving in a good way. One my long time players said that this has been the longest he's never bought a new game, because of wesnoth. thats a pretty tall statement when one considers that this is a free game. We've put alot of thought into every aspect of the game, you best be thinking about that before you give us your next "brilliant idea"



[/rant mode off]

[tsr]

Ok, I wish to apologise to all of you, I never meant to upset you like this

I do admit that I am having difficulties understanding what this community is all about and the regulars fierce fighting against the idea of atrackting new players. I will just have to leave it at that and wish you all a continuos happy wesnothing.

/tsr