Merman to have 60% defence on Deep Water?

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irrevenant
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Merman to have 60% defence on Deep Water?

Post by irrevenant »

Nagas are described as not being as comfortable in the deep as Mermen yet they have the same movement and defence in deep water. Shouldn't mermen have a slight edge there as it's their natural element?

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Zhukov
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Post by Zhukov »

For a start, balance trumps reality.

Besides, if you are going by the descriptions...
Naga description wrote:The serpentine naga are one of the few races capable of any meaningful mobility in water, giving them a whole world forbidden to land dwellers. Still, they are not true creatures of the sea, and their inability to breathe water leaves them in trepidation of the abyss. They are small, and somewhat frail in form, but often much more nimble than their opponents.
Merman description wrote:Skilled creatures of the sea, Mermen are powerful and quick in any watery environment, but struggle greatly to move on land.
...the only thing mentioned is a "trepidation of the abyss."
If you want a reason for the equal stats, you could say the Naga are not really disadvantaged as the fights take place on or near the surface of the water.

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Post by zol »

Zhukov wrote:For a start, balance trumps reality.
Agreed, but just for the sake of this realism idea -
If you want a reason for the equal stats, you could say the Naga are not really disadvantaged as the fights take place on or near the surface of the water.
The fights do, but being near the surface is a sub-optimal defense strategy for mermen.

The story I'd tell would be something like -
Mermen can exploit more degrees of freedom effectively in deep water.
However, the naga have other characteristics to compensate and neutralise the difference in defence. Several characteristics could qualify: perhaps a martial culture and upbringing, or fast reflexes and greater flexibility etc.

(Although, one cannot really get around the fact that mermen should be able to get completely beyond reach by going deep enough - but that's true of flight as well.)
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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Zhukov wrote:For a start, balance trumps reality.
That goes without saying, but it's balanced out by the Naga being powerful on land than the merfolk.

Alternately, we could drop that line about the Naga having 'trepidation of the deep'. But I'd prefer my initial idea; it makes the mermen more distinct from the nagas.

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JW
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Post by JW »

Cold resistance:

Mermen: 20%
Nagas: -20%

Damage:

Mermen: 18+
Nagas: 16

Mermen are disadvantaged?

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Dragonking
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Post by Dragonking »

Honestly.. I dislike idea, and I think it is ok right now...

Deep water is 50% to not make water-wars so heavily luck-based.
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Post by scott »

It was reduced for gameplay reasons, long long ago. I remember getting into a flamewar over it, but I might be wrong.
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Post by Noyga »

IMO having some variation in the % of defense in water environement makes the sea combats a little more interesting.

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Post by YbeRn00b »

Noyga wrote:IMO having some variation in the % of defense in water environement makes the sea combats a little more interesting.
Agreed. I like the idea of mermen having a little more % on deep than naga, but I see the balancing issues.

Would this work?:
Naga gets 40% on deep water (no place to hide when you cannot breath in the depths), but also minor (10%?) resistance to piercing (they are snakeish, just like saurians), to give naga something back witch also helps vs mermen.

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Post by Dragonking »

No, because
1) it would effect with gryphons being _far_ more powerful against nagas in deep water
2) nagas would be beter against mermans in other places than deep water.

I don't get why do you want to change it that much..
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Post by irrevenant »

JW wrote:Cold resistance: Mermen: 20%, Nagas: -20%
Damage: Mermen: 18+, Nagas: 16
Mermen are disadvantaged?
IMO, the damage is probably fairly even because, yes the Mermen have a higher maximum damage, but Nagas have more attacks. And how often does Cold Resistance matter (especially in the deep ocean away from DAs and Saurians)?

And, of course, the big advantage Naga have is they're "all terrain vehicles", whereas the mermen can barely move on land.
Dragonking wrote:Deep water is 50% to not make water-wars so heavily luck-based.
Please explain?
Dragonking wrote:I don't get why do you want to change it that much.
Noyga basically answered this for me; to make sea combats more interesting. Also it just feels right that Mermen should be the most effective unit in the deep ocean; they're the game's only dedicated water unit.

And I agree that it's the Mermen who should be bumped up rather than the Naga bumped down.
Last edited by irrevenant on July 30th, 2006, 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dragon Master »

I would have to say that Mermen are fine as-is. How much combat takes place in stretches of deep water that's mermen/naga intensive?

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Post by Dragonking »

irrevenant wrote:
Dragonking wrote:Deep water is 50% to not make water-wars so heavily luck-based.
Please explain?
60%def shallow water battles are heavily luck-based. 50% deep water aren't.
irrevenant wrote: Also it just feels right that Mermen should be the most effective unit in the deep ocean; they're the game's only dedicated water unit.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on venus" ;-)

And I don't see any balancing reasons to power-up mermans.
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Post by Tippsey »

Wait wait, how can we don't want the battles to be heavily luck based, does that mean the impilications of lowering or raising that def value weren't looked at other then naga against merman and lets make those matches go faster. Why hell why not make footpads have more hp and 50% def as well or oh I know use that less luck mod. I expect a little more thinking than that as most of the drake faction could with ease go flying out into the water to fight the mermans. It wouldn't be smart but it could happen. Was that looked at before everyone just went nah man make it 50% we want this to go faster. Also were all other flyers taken into account? Ghosts may only be a threat to nagas but wraiths would be a far different story, I know discussions on balancing do happen but please don'tell us that was the main reason mermans were brought down to 50% long ago. It merely sounds like a noobie thing because the new folks are always whining about the game taking to long... even 1 on 1.
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Post by JW »

irrevenant wrote:IMO, the damage is probably fairly even because, yes the Mermen have a higher maximum damage, but Nagas have more attacks.
That realy doesn't matter except for when it comes to finishing a unit. Mermen deal more damage (especially Mermen Hunters: 23 total damage? (4-2 and 5-3?))
And how often does Cold Resistance matter (especially in the deep ocean away from DAs and Saurians)?
First off, the premise that just because Cold resistance means little out in deep water then it means little altogether is flawed. Most balanced MP maps don't have long stretches of water that aren't exposed to land. Think of Blitz, Charge, Den of Osiris...

Secondly, even if this mattered, you yourself mentioned the largest advantage the Naga has over Mermen is his land ability:
And, of course, the big advantage Naga have is they're "all terrain vehicles", whereas the mermen can barely move on land.
-so using his advantage would expose him to his greatest weakness (Cold damage).

Thirdly, there is a unit the Undead have called "Ghost". It can fly over water with 50% defense and uses Cold damage (with Drain on melee).

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