Undead 'traits'

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Undead 'traits'

Post by Sangel »

Undead are a pretty bland lot. They're rotting, shambling corpses, so I understand why they don't get your usual assortment of personality-type traits. What's to make one skeleton distinct from another? But on the other hand, higher-level Undead units are often semi-intelligent (Revenants, Death Knights, Wraiths, etc), even semi-unique.

How about a set of Undead Traits of which they'll gain one when advancing to Level 2? I have a couple which seem appropriate -

Frightening - This unit is particularly fearsome, gaining an increased bonus at night (perhaps 40%)

Unrelenting - This unit just won't lie down. +5HP.

Enervating - This unit now drains in hand to hand combat.

Chilling - This unit is surrounding by a freezing aura, and does cold damage in hand to hand combat.

Nightstalker - This unit now disappears at night (this is already an ability, right?)


Of course, this means the increase in power during advancement will be more dramatic, but this could be balanced. Thoughts?

Darth Fool
Retired Developer
Posts: 2633
Joined: March 22nd, 2004, 11:22 pm
Location: An Earl's Roadstead

Post by Darth Fool »

Hmm... traits as a function of race.... an interesting idea. I don't know how hard it would be to implement or balance, but it could be cool. Still, there is some overlap with existing traits...

User avatar
turin
Lord of the East
Posts: 11662
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 7:17 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Undead 'traits'

Post by turin »

Sangel wrote:Undead are a pretty bland lot. They're rotting, shambling corpses, so I understand why they don't get your usual assortment of personality-type traits. What's to make one skeleton distinct from another? But on the other hand, higher-level Undead units are often semi-intelligent (Revenants, Death Knights, Wraiths, etc), even semi-unique.

How about a set of Undead Traits of which they'll gain one when advancing to Level 2? I have a couple which seem appropriate -

Frightening - This unit is particularly fearsome, gaining an increased bonus at night (perhaps 40%)

Unrelenting - This unit just won't lie down. +5HP.

Enervating - This unit now drains in hand to hand combat.

Chilling - This unit is surrounding by a freezing aura, and does cold damage in hand to hand combat.

Nightstalker - This unit now disappears at night (this is already an ability, right?)


Of course, this means the increase in power during advancement will be more dramatic, but this could be balanced. Thoughts?
Of these, only Unrelenting seems like it would not be overpowering as a trait, and it seems weak. why not have it so they got traits but they were called different names, so:

quick=(?)
strong=(?)
resilient=unrelenting
loyal=(?)
intelligent=trainable (as in rats-running-mazes trainable. yeah, its stupid, think of something better.)
for undead units
(yeah, i'm not the most creative when it comes to names)

and they each get 2 traits, as opposed to making up new traits, which would be unbalanced.

(i'd like to say that although these sound bad as traits, they would work fine as abilities)
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm

Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by Dave »

'Frightening' doesn't sound overpowering to me either -- probably not as powerful as strong.

All the others do sound rather powerful.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel »

The exact effect of the traits isn't really so important - that's just a matter of balancing, which can easily be done by comparing them to the current traits in play. What I'm more interested in is if people like the idea of Undead having traits, and if gaining them at 2nd level seems appropriate. To me, your average run-of-the-mill skeleton shouldn't have any distinguishing features.

And I'd definitely want to have a different trait list than to "normal" creatures. While some (resilient, strong) we could rename and reuse, I think the more differentiation, the more uniqueness we can add to each side, the better.

Integral
Posts: 244
Joined: December 14th, 2003, 9:36 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by Integral »

I don't like the idea of giving the same traits different names in each race -- not only do you end up having to generate lots of extra trait names, it makes things confusing for the player, who has to remember that "strong" for humans is "frightening" for undead is "brutish" for orcs is "stout" for dwarves....

I do like the idea of race-specific traits, but I think shared traits should have a single name.

Daniel

Dave
Founding Developer
Posts: 7071
Joined: August 17th, 2003, 5:07 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Post by Dave »

Sangel wrote:The exact effect of the traits isn't really so important - that's just a matter of balancing
It actually does matter what the exact traits are, because traits have to have small effects. Considering how long people have been trying to come up with additional traits to the original four, and only one being accepted (loyal) shows that it's actually rather difficult to come up with traits that either don't have over-complicated rules, don't seem contrived, and aren't over powerful.
Integral wrote: I do like the idea of race-specific traits, but I think shared traits should have a single name.
Concur.

David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel »

Point taken. What I meant is that the exact traits the Undead get doesn't matter at all to me - so long as they're balanced.

Speaking of additions to the "basic five" - how about "Brave" for Lawful Units? Reduces or eliminates the night penalty?
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Boucman
Inactive Developer
Posts: 2119
Joined: March 31st, 2004, 1:04 pm

Post by Boucman »

and something like "daring" for the symetrical for chaotic units ?

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel »

I was thinking of having "Brave" be contrasted with "Frightening" in that "Frightening" Chaotic units get nastier at night, while "Brave" Lawful units get better able to combat them.
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Boucman
Inactive Developer
Posts: 2119
Joined: March 31st, 2004, 1:04 pm

Post by Boucman »

yes, you're right, it's better not to have an exact symetry between traits

Kamahawk
Posts: 583
Joined: November 9th, 2003, 11:26 pm
Location: Foggy California

Post by Kamahawk »

How about a trait that gives 1 or 2 point regeneration to undead units?
My contributions to the Wesnoth Project over time are inversly proportional to the number of registered forum users!
Piet Hein wrote:Knowing what thou knowest not is in a sence Omniscience

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel »

Yes, I'd thought of that. Perhaps that would be a better use of the word Relentless. Imagine a relentless, resilient Revenant bearing down on your troops...
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Kamahawk
Posts: 583
Joined: November 9th, 2003, 11:26 pm
Location: Foggy California

Post by Kamahawk »

Sangel wrote:Yes, I'd thought of that. Perhaps that would be a better use of the word Relentless. Imagine a relentless, resilient Revenant bearing down on your troops...
Imagine the look on its face when my quick great mage teleports into a near bye village, charges forward and torches it to ash.
My contributions to the Wesnoth Project over time are inversly proportional to the number of registered forum users!
Piet Hein wrote:Knowing what thou knowest not is in a sence Omniscience

Sangel
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 2232
Joined: March 26th, 2004, 10:58 pm
Location: New York, New York

Post by Sangel »

Shame on you and your Great Mage. Shame I say! Is there no rest for the dead?
"Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Post Reply