Asheviere campaign brainstorming (spoilers!)

scott · Post by **scott** » March 15th, 2006, 12:46 am

I would make Delfador an idealist who does what he does for what he sees as a final good. He may have even maneuvered Garard into going to war for what he sees as good reasons. He is rigid and inflexible... and it's up to you if history vindicates his decision to drive the king to war.

Then, I would make Asheviere a pragmatist who starts out like a normal person. The people she associates with do not even need to be evil, but she makes a series of moral compromises either to help them, save them, or to fulfill their requests. I think it would really be a lot of fun for you as the writer to develop her slide into heartless cruelty. Bricks in the wall, so to speak. At some point she crosses a line, and we can just sit back and watch her descend into depravity.

In "A Seed of Evil," the perspective was intentionally skewed so we knew history was being rewritten from the other guy's perspective, and it never challenged your basic concept of what happened. If you're not going to do that here, I recommend that you not fuzzy up the morality too much. You're interested in telling this story in the first place because she's a bad gal and you want to explore how it happened. Changing the details around such that she's not really bad but merely misunderstood makes it less interesting.

Consider Star Wars Episode III. Aside from the fact they came up with the stupidest f****** reason for Anakin to turn to the dark side (Lucas had 20 years to figure this out - and it's bad dreams that do it?!? Yeesh), Darth Vader is the scariest dude in the galaxy in the original Star Wars. Is it more satisfying for us for the earlier movie to justify everything he does as a matter of POV? No. He slaughters little kids, turns on his friends, hunts down Jedi, tortures people, etc. He lives up to his name. He started out as a good person, but in the end he was just plain evil. How does that happen? That journey is more interesting than going from good to perceived-but-not-really evil.

Just a brainstorm there.

I have an indoor wall tileset. It's easy to change the appearance of the walls, but it's not easy to get them to layer properly with other terrains in WML.

Ranger M · Post by **Ranger M** » March 15th, 2006, 1:23 am

I basically agree with Scott, although he has some new and interesting ideas about it (see my previous post)

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » March 15th, 2006, 10:56 am

I see a bit of a plot hole- if Garard always follow Delfador's advice, Delfador must have advised Garard to marry Asheviere- why would he do that if Asheviere is his enemy?

It seems to me that either Garard must have rejected Delfador's advice about Asheviere (so he's not really so easily manipulated), or Asheviere and Delfador were originally friends, (so why did they became enemies?)

Also would Asheviere really conspire to kill her own children as HttT implies? I mean that's insane. It seems to me Garads other sons must have been by a previous Queen. Rivalry between these two sets of children would explain the apparent rift in the kingdom leading up to the ford of Abez.

Here is my version:

Asheviere is princess of some small nation, living in same area as Orcs. She participates in a few local conflicts (Orcs + Humans against Orcs), gaining a reputation as an effective leader, admired by both orcs and humans. Then people from Wesnoth come looking for a queen to marry their king Garard. (His first queen has died, leaving behind two sons) He thinks Asheviere could be a valuable ally on the always unstable northern frontier.

Delfador opposes the marriage, because he thinks trouble will result from the two sets of royal children. Garard however overrules him.They get married and as Delfador predicted trouble results. One faction forms around Asheviere/her son Eldred/pro-orcish and another around Delfador/first queens children/pro-elvish. They maneuver to put their supporters in positions of power, and try to influence policy, especially who should be crown prince- Eldred or Garard's first queen's eldest son (who really needs a name). Garard is caught in the middle, cannot decide and does nothing.

The palace intrigue escalates into violence. After Asheviere assasinates some elvish envoys Delfador vows to defeat her. And she says: "I am a fighter, and I never give up. I can be nice, and I can be evil -- you have not seen my worst side yet. And I have good friends too. So I am not afraid of you."

In the 27th year of Garad's reign he is growing old (60) and feeble. He decides he cannot allow the indecision over the crown prince to continue. Otherwise civil war will result. Pressed by Asheviere, he finally appoints Eldred crown prince.

Seeing her advantage, Asheviere secretly summons her old friends from "the Peoples of the North" to invade the kingdom. Garar's army marches north, to the ford of Abez, and the story follows HttT from there.

Post by **zookeeper** » March 15th, 2006, 11:09 am

Prometheus wrote:Also would Asheviere really conspire to kill her own children as HttT implies? I mean that's insane. It seems to me Garads other sons must have been by a previous Queen. Rivalry between these two sets of children would explain the apparent rift in the kingdom leading up to the ford of Abez.

Asheviere only has two children: Eldred and Li'sar. The bunch of kids she got assassinated in the intro of HttT were the king's nephews - the children of prince Arand (the king's little brother).

You had a few good points, which I hope to eventually include in the campaign; Delfador opposing the marriage and predicting trouble from the two sets of royal children, and Garard having the decision about his successor - either his brother or his son. Very nice.

Post by **Viliam** » March 15th, 2006, 1:32 pm

I am glad you liked my version... originally I wanted to write something "balanced", but at the end I made Delfador very evil person. Just tried how difficult it would be; and then suprisingly it was not that difficult (once you assume Delfador can lie about anything, you can dismiss any statement from HTTT; that is: any information about Asheviere).

But it would be better if the "true story" were consistent with information from HTTT.

Also, if Delfador were really such an evil person, and had irrational hate for Asheviere and her family... well, he would not help Lisar gaining the throne. Or maybe he would. (1) Maybe he somehow feels guilty for how he behaved to Asheviere; realising that he is also part of cause for the whole war. But he cannot make peace with Asheviere anymore, so he at least tries to be nice to her daughter. (2) Or he is completely evil, and he enjoys the idea of mother and daughter fighting against each other. He succeeds in making Asheviere hated by everyone including her own child... what a sweet revenge! (3) He needs someone from royal blood on the throne. Too many people know Konrad is fake heir; this would be a reason for later uprisings against king.

One question we need to solve is why did Asheviere conspire with her son to kill the king? Because that is the critical point in her life - it should fit into the rest of her story. HTTT suggests that they were too hungry for power, and they wanted it now; being the queen and king's son was not enough. Besides that, more things are unknown.

"Garard was slain in battle that day, along with his brother and all his sons but Eldred." I guess his sons refers to sons of Garard (not of his brother); though the sentence seems ambivalent to me (however, English is not my first language, so please correct me if I am wrong). Eldred certainly was the son of Garard and Asheviere.

Were the other "sons of Garard" also sons of Asheviere -- that is, did she organize the murder of her husband and her sons? Or could the other sons have different mother -- previous queen, concubine(s), or... is there a polygamy in Wesnoth? Please note that if the other sons were sons of the previous queen, then they were older than Eldred. Unless... Garard first had an illegitimate child with Asheviere, but was married with someone else, and after she died, he decided to marry Asheviere. No, if this were true, it certainly would be mentioned in HTTT intro.

I just wonder why the intro emphasizes that "his sons" were killed, instead of saying something like "Asheviere killed her husband and their sons, along with his brother". I think murdering one's own children is outrageous, but narrator seems not to care about it.

Was Eldred the legitimate heir? That is, if instead Asheviere and Eldred would wait (or kill the king less dramatically - by poison, by assasination), would Eldred become the king? If the answer were "no", their actions would IMHO make more sense; or rather, if the answer were "yes", they acted completely stupidly. Either Eldred is not the oldest son, or there is some other cause why he cannot become the king. (One possibility -- Asheviere is not of noble origin, so the king was allowed to marry her only under promiss that after him, his brother's children will inherit the throne.)

Li'sar is daughter of Asheviere. But is she also daughter of Garard? I do not remember (and am too lazy to find it now) what is the age of Li'sar compared with age of Konrad. When Garard was killed, Konrad was a small baby (the picture suggests so)... less than 1 year, maybe. Let's just say that if Li'sar is more than 2 years younger than Konrad, she cannot be daughter of Garard; however if she is older, or less than 2 years younger than Konrad, she is a daughter of Garard (unless she is Asheviere's illegitimate child -- which could explain a few things... maybe Garard knew this, and planned to divorce after the was is over; so Asheviere has to act immediately).

Ranger M · Post by **Ranger M** » March 15th, 2006, 1:39 pm

for Ashevier's resons for killing Garard, I like my idea, of doing it for the sake of Wesnoth, to begin with, (again see my old post, i don't want o have to explain the whole lot again) it fits in with the gradually turning evil idea.

as for the rest, I like idea of Li'sar being Garard's daughter, and I would go with the others sons being changed in the story of Httt (it's not that important in that campaign after all) to nephews instead.

Post by **Kestenvarn** » March 15th, 2006, 2:00 pm

If these campaign gets made... can we get a few missions playing as the Crown Prince betrayer, ultimately dying at the hands of Delfador in a climactic duel?

It would tie in neatly with the new storyline artwork being developed...

catwhowalksbyhimself · March 15th, 2006, 2:05 pm

I don't think that would make for the great turning point this ought to be. It ought to be the final decision that makes her turn evil.

Here's my idea: Delfador has suspicious of the queen and her friendship with orcs and has convinced himself that she and her son have nothing good in mind and will betray the kingdom and start a rebellion. This is not really true, but he wants to believe it.

The king does not believe him, but Delfador proposes a test: proclaim one of the younger sons (I here assume that the intro text does mean that he has sons, but they are younger and are her sons too. You can switch it to nephew instead, if you prefer) to be the heir instead and gage her reaction. She is furious, and Delfador uses her tirade to convince the king she is a traitor. He denounces her and orders her sent to the dungeon. To save herself, she starts her rebellion. To her horror, only her eldest son sides with her: the rest all side with their father against her, and in her fury against all of them for betraying her, she has them killed. This act of anger "turns her to the dark side" if you will.

From then on, she feels she can not trust anyone, except for her two loyal children, again, and becomes a tyrant to protect herself.

Post by **Darth Fool** » March 15th, 2006, 2:06 pm

Ashevere kills Gerard, obviously, because she thinks he is under the spell of the evil mage Delfador. Heck, she might have been opposed to the war in the first place, and considered that Gerard's decision to go to war following Delfador's advice as evidence of Delf's control over him.

Yes, it is easy and there is a long tradition of making story elements black and white, making someone totally good or totally evil. It is, however, far more interesting when the 'evil' characters are acting not out of some psychotic evilness, but for reasons that they consider to be good. Purely psychotic characters inevitably lead to two dimensional characters. So, I vote for having Ashevere acting out of what she perceives as the good of wesnoth, with her failing, perhaps, being that she believes that Delfador is pure evil and able to magically corrupt even her beloved daughter.

Post by **zookeeper** » March 15th, 2006, 2:28 pm

Viliam wrote:One question we need to solve is why did Asheviere conspire with her son to kill the king? Because that is the critical point in her life - it should fit into the rest of her story. HTTT suggests that they were too hungry for power, and they wanted it now; being the queen and king's son was not enough. Besides that, more things are unknown.

I'd vote for her gradually getting sick of the king being unable to lead as effectively and decisively as she would prefer, and also for more often than not doing what Delfador tells without much questioning. This combined with the usual lust for power might be enough as a reason. I have another, more personal reason in consideration, but I'll let it out a bit later.

Viliam wrote: Were the other "sons of Garard" also sons of Asheviere -- that is, did she organize the murder of her husband and her sons? Or could the other sons have different mother -- previous queen, concubine(s), or... is there a polygamy in Wesnoth? Please note that if the other sons were sons of the previous queen, then they were older than Eldred. Unless... Garard first had an illegitimate child with Asheviere, but was married with someone else, and after she died, he decided to marry Asheviere. No, if this were true, it certainly would be mentioned in HTTT intro. I just wonder why the intro emphasizes that "his sons" were killed, instead of saying something like "Asheviere killed her husband and their sons, along with his brother". I think murdering one's own children is outrageous, but narrator seems not to care about it.

I'm not sure whether the HttT intro means the sons of Garard or the sons of Garard's brother, Arand. Nevertheless, it is told that it's only after those battles that Asheviere orders the king's nephews killed, so obviously all of Arand's sons (like Konrad, who was a baby) couldn't have died at the battle. It would indeed be odd for Asheviere to want her other sons (assuming there were indeed others than Eldred) killed, but not impossible for Eldred independently deciding to kill his brothers to secure the throne. Although it would be a bit odd, unless Eldred planned to betray Asheviere too by killing her other sons as well, but then Asheviere probably wouldn't have cared one bit about Eldred being slain, unlike how it seems.

Viliam wrote: Was Eldred the legitimate heir? That is, if instead Asheviere and Eldred would wait (or kill the king less dramatically - by poison, by assasination), would Eldred become the king? If the answer were "no", their actions would IMHO make more sense; or rather, if the answer were "yes", they acted completely stupidly. Either Eldred is not the oldest son, or there is some other cause why he cannot become the king. (One possibility -- Asheviere is not of noble origin, so the king was allowed to marry her only under promiss that after him, his brother's children will inherit the throne.)

My guess is that it was up to the king to name his successor - either his son Eldred or his brother Arand. Probably Delfador and Asheviere were both promoting their own "candidates", and the king was once again unable to decide, so both Eldred and Arand were "rivals" to each other, and might both have had similar plans about getting rid of the other.

Viliam wrote: Li'sar is daughter of Asheviere. But is she also daughter of Garard? I do not remember (and am too lazy to find it now) what is the age of Li'sar compared with age of Konrad. When Garard was killed, Konrad was a small baby (the picture suggests so)... less than 1 year, maybe. Let's just say that if Li'sar is more than 2 years younger than Konrad, she cannot be daughter of Garard; however if she is older, or less than 2 years younger than Konrad, she is a daughter of Garard (unless she is Asheviere's illegitimate child -- which could explain a few things... maybe Garard knew this, and planned to divorce after the was is over; so Asheviere has to act immediately).

Li'sar was born 2 years before Konrad, 2-3 years before the king was killed. She should definitely be Garard's child, IMHO.

Big Bad Joe · Post by **Big Bad Joe** » March 15th, 2006, 2:45 pm

I know it is just a simple solution for this great part of wesnothian history, but what if Asheviere start to hate Garard just because his behavior towards other women. If I undestand right, there is a number of other children of him and Ash is not their mother. Delf will always stand for his king and do not take feelings of queen into account. You know, something like: " He is king, he has a right to have any woman he wants. Just take it easy my little queen." She could be a very good person, but hate to king and to the man that always defend his behavior - because it is normal and all the kings do it this way, could change her to the real fury. Man, I start to write books for Red library - a great story of love, treason and vengeance..

Just my two cents.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » March 15th, 2006, 10:17 pm

If we go with the prophecy idea, Delfador and Garard would have no trouble with Asheviere at first. That cleans up the beginning parts.

One timeline could start like this:

1) Asheviere leading humans and orcs against orcs. Delfador shows up, is impressed. This could be a couple scenarios if desired.

2) cut-scene. The proposal. Accepted, of course.

3) Garard and Asheviere command two wings of the army when they are attacked. Make Garard's AI be not much help. At the end of the battle, there is a strategy conference. Asheviere lays into him for being listless, and advocates swift retaliation. Garard is really wishy-washy. Delfador in the end convinces Garard to let him and Asheviere lead the counterattack. Garard lets an ambassador from the elves observe.

4) They do. At the end, Asheviere is unnecessarily brutal, and the elvish ambassador is alarmed. Delfador is neutral in reaction.

5) years pass, and Asheviere bears her son.
The prophecy is delivered. Garard is skeptical. Delfador is extremely ready to believe it, given her behavior on the battlefield.
"These prophecies are never wrong."
"Then they are lying. You know what the ambassador thought of me."
"I do." Delfador finds it imprudent to push further in the open at this time.

Things degenerate from there.

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » March 15th, 2006, 11:15 pm

Garard was slain in battle that day, along with his brother and all his sons but Eldred."

This statement is somewhat loose in its syntax, but the meaning is clear, "his sons" must be Garard's sons, otherwise "but Eldred" makes no sense.

Eldred is described as the "Crown Prince"; he is the legal heir. But we don't know when he was declared heir, it might have been just before the battle at the Fords of Abez. Heirs often wanted to speed up the succession by eliminating the old man, because you never knew when the political situation would change.

If these campaign gets made... can we get a few missions playing as the Crown Prince betrayer, ultimately dying at the hands of Delfador in a climactic duel?

I think the events mentioned at the beginning of HttT should be the end of the Asheviere campaign.

Having Delfador first approves Asheviere's marriage and then change his mind means something big has to happen to cause them to turn against each other. The proposals I've seen don't eem big enough to me. Anyway the presumed pro-orcish views of Asheviere and the pro-elvish views of Delfador should be enough to put them against each other right from the beginning.

Post by **Dave** » March 16th, 2006, 12:44 am

Prometheus wrote:I see a bit of a plot hole- if Garard always follow Delfador's advice, Delfador must have advised Garard to marry Asheviere- why would he do that if Asheviere is his enemy?

Asheviere only becomes his enemy when she tries to usurp power through her treachery.

Viliam wrote: Also, if Delfador were really such an evil person, and had irrational hate for Asheviere and her family... well, he would not help Lisar gaining the throne. Or maybe he would.

Delfador is a benevolent figure who wants the best for Wesnoth, and is loyal to Garard's memory. He is initially hesitant about helping Li'sar become queen, but eventually goes along with it, especially after the Elven Council.

Viliam wrote: One question we need to solve is why did Asheviere conspire with her son to kill the king? Because that is the critical point in her life - it should fit into the rest of her story. HTTT suggests that they were too hungry for power, and they wanted it now; being the queen and king's son was not enough. Besides that, more things are unknown.

Asheviere wanted her husband to try to build Wesnoth into an empire by invading other lands. However, he was a peaceful king, and didn't want to do that.

Viliam wrote: Were the other "sons of Garard" also sons of Asheviere -- that is, did she organize the murder of her husband and her sons?

Yes, the other sons were sons of Asheviere. They could possibly have decided to help Eldred, but instead they stayed loyal to Garard, and so were killed. Killing them wasn't necessarily an intended action of Asheviere's, it just happened in the battle when they remained loyal to Garard.

Viliam wrote: Was Eldred the legitimate heir?

Yes. But by overthrowing the throne in this way, Asheviere felt she could defeat all of her enemies in one fell swoop. (And excepting Delfador, she in fact did).

Viliam wrote: Li'sar is daughter of Asheviere. But is she also daughter of Garard?

Yes. She is about the same age as Konrad.

David

scott · Post by **scott** » March 16th, 2006, 8:15 pm

zookeeper wrote:
Viliam wrote: Was Eldred the legitimate heir? That is, if instead Asheviere and Eldred would wait (or kill the king less dramatically - by poison, by assasination), would Eldred become the king ? etc...
My guess is that it was up to the king to name his successor - either his son Eldred or his brother Arand. Probably Delfador and Asheviere were both promoting their own "candidates", and the king was once again unable to decide, so both Eldred and Arand were "rivals" to each other, and might both have had similar plans about getting rid of the other.

I don't know how I missed this:

Wesnoth's historian wrote: 478 YW
Garard II marries Asheviere.
Garard II issues the Sceptre Edict of Royal Succession

480 YW
Crown Prince Eldred is born.

Though he was the crown prince for now, there was no guarantee that Eldred would get the throne. Making the announcement right when marrying Asheviere is like a pre-nuptual agreement and completely undercuts her ability to wield any power if someone besides her son is chosen as the heir.