Defense (continued)

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Dave
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Post by Dave »

Christophe33 wrote: I just realised that mage units are a better example than mounted one for the reason to split range defense from melee defense... they should have bad to very bad defense in melee (except if there was a special magic defense) but not as bad for range attack. Right now it is always the same which make the game less interesting.
I think that the game already handles mages being poor in melee adequately by making them have a very weak melee attack, and thus little chance to counter-attack enemies that attack them in melee.

They are already vulnerable enough to this. Making them more vulnerable would be overkill imho.

Also this change would be likely to make magical attacks less special and less useful imo. They are currently 'special' in that they are the one way to get yourself a higher chance to hit. If you make just anyone be able to do this by choosing their ranged/melee attacks the right way, then mages won't be as useful.

I think that a more 'Wesnoth-like' way to implement this would be to simply add two special abilities -- one that makes it more difficult to hit a unit from range, and one that makes it more difficult to hit a unit in melee. Horsemen might get higher chances to be hit in all terrain, but get the special 'mounted' ability which gives them -20% chance to be hit in melee.

Even then, I'm dubious about whether it will enhance gameplay or not. I personally do like the current very simple hit-lookup tables.

David
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Post by Darth Fool »

miyo wrote:
Christophe33 wrote:I like idea of being able to click on a unit then on another to have displayed the % chance to hit and damage as if you were initiating a fight without having to move your unit in contact of the enemy.
If there are different terrain types around the defender you would also have to select from which hex you will attack as that sets enemy chances to hit you.

- Miyo
good point. I guess if I were to think a little more how I would do the player interface for this would be something like:
1) player selects test battle option (Obviosly need a better name for this)
2) player selects creature to attack
3) player selects hex to attack from
4) player moves mouse over different of his own units and computer displays odds....

The process could swap enemy and ones own units if you wanted to know how a current
unit would defend against various attacks.

The advantage of this order (inverted from my original suggestion) is that I think that it is more likely that a player is wandering which of his own unit to attack with then which enemy unit to attack.

of course the more mouse clicks you have to do, the more disruptive to the game it becomes...

Christophe33
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Post by Christophe33 »

Dave wrote: I think that the game already handles mages being poor in melee adequately by making them have a very weak melee attack, and thus little chance to counter-attack enemies that attack them in melee.

They are already vulnerable enough to this. Making them more vulnerable would be overkill imho.
David
White mage are really very weak in melee but not the red, great mage and arch mage.
In a recent playof the Home of Northern elf with Fog of war I missevaluated a situation and ended with a badly wounded horseman against an orc..with more orc coming. The only unit I could bring to cover the horseman was an arch mage. It held its own against two wolf rider and 2 orc grunts (Ok it fried one of them at each turn:)) for two rounds even though they had the occasion to attack it in melee. One of the orc grunt was actually very badly wounded during the two melee turns.
So great mage are not that bad in melee, at least against a few level1 units. But I think this has more to do with the high HP the great and red mage have than anything else (I think their HP should be reduced).
Ok, here is an unrelated but cute (for me) idea for a special defensive power (to give to some elusive units):
Right now when a unit placed in terrain A attack another placed in a terrain B, it is considered that each one stays on its own terrain (fighting at the interface?). But you could consider too that the fight take place in the terrain of the defenser (B) the attacking unit is trying to invade. It will even sounds more logic to do so. Then the chance to be hit will be based only on the terrain the defenser stands.
I'm not proposing to do this change because this would really seriously change all the strategy and lead to some weird consequence like the attacker of a castle profiting of the bonus of the castle (not acceptable in most cases).
However, for an elusive unit (lvl3?) you could make a special power giving it the best % chance to be hit between terrain A and B when it attacks an enemy. It will allow such units, witch usually have little HP, to efficiently attack enemies placed in a good defensive position...by profiting of this bonus when they attack (but not when they defend). It would be a good power for something like the fencer.
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Post by Guest »

Christophe33 wrote:Right now when a unit placed in terrain A attack another placed in a terrain B, it is considered that each one stays on its own terrain (fighting at the interface?). But you could consider too that the fight take place in the terrain of the defenser (B) the attacking unit is trying to invade. It will even sounds more logic to do so. Then the chance to be hit will be based only on the terrain the defenser stands.
I hadn't realized this.

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turin
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Post by turin »

having the battle take place solely in the terrain of a defender makes sense, but personally i think it would ruin the strategy of the game, because it would made it much harder to get a terrain advantage over the enemy.
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Post by Darth Fool »

turin wrote:having the battle take place solely in the terrain of a defender makes sense, but personally i think it would ruin the strategy of the game, because it would made it much harder to get a terrain advantage over the enemy.
I agree. Typically war games that have the battle taking place only in the defenders hex also involve the winning side taking control of that hex. By having it split means that where you attack from actually makes a difference and so you have to think more, both on offense and defense! I don't think that a special unit with the ability to use either would make things that much more interesting either.

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Post by Blackbeard »

Attack/Defense calculations are boring and no fun. There are enough variables to make a simple attack calculation a mental challenge. An undo for FoW and Shroud is the simplest solution because players won't have to learn anything new and it keeps the game's 'look and feel'. An automatic 'commit' on attack or another move would be great. I assume FoW/Shroud will only be 'lifted' after commiting each move.

Arch Mages are very weak defensively. Please don't weaken them.

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Post by Christophe33 »

Blackbeard wrote:Attack/Defense calculations are boring and no fun. There are enough variables to make a simple attack calculation a mental challenge.
Arch Mages are very weak defensively. Please don't weaken them.
There is no calculation whatsover for the % chance to hit (but there can be a lot for the amount of damage, see the topic on it). The % chance to hit is determined by a lookout table based on the unit type and the terrain, there is no other parameter or calculation involved.
Having a unit able to use the best of 2 terrains % chance to be hit when fighting would be a good addition in term of special power. It is usefull when dealing with fight at the interface between two very different terrain (like river and forest) but doesn't bring any advantage when both terrain are the same. So you have to wrok to fully profit of the advantage..like the backstab for thief.

Arch Mage have basically as much HP than an elf champion and I think it is a bit too much (by about 10). Yes they can be killed in a round of melee with two troll warriors...but so do most lvl3 fighter units. They actually are not too bad against a few lvl1 units...not that I recommend it.
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turin
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Post by turin »

they are seen as 'weak' by some people because they are the only ones that routinely go out of formation (when teleporting) allowing them to be attacked by multiple people (about four or five sometimes). if you make them much more powerful, they will be undesrtoyable when they are in formation with their allies. i think the solution (which is already partially implemented) is to give them more hp, BUT make it so it is hard for them to fight in a group (perhaps by decreasing their movement- but down to 3 might be too little).
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Post by Eponymous-Archon »

Christophe33 wrote:
Blackbeard wrote:Attack/Defense calculations are boring and no fun. There are enough variables to make a simple attack calculation a mental challenge.
Arch Mages are very weak defensively. Please don't weaken them.
There is no calculation whatsover for the % chance to hit (but there can be a lot for the amount of damage, see the topic on it). The % chance to hit is determined by a lookout table based on the unit type and the terrain, there is no other parameter or calculation involved.
True, but that's not what Blackbeard wrote. :-)

There are all sorts of calculations for damage taken and damage done: time of day and resistance, for example. These make it non-trivial to figure in your head (in my head anyway). Frankly, the look-up table itself (intended for developers and not users, btw) is enough work.
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Post by Blackbeard »

Eponymous-Archon wrote:
Christophe33 wrote: There is no calculation whatsover for the % chance to hit (but there can be a lot for the amount of damage, see the topic on it). The % chance to hit is determined by a lookout table based on the unit type and the terrain, there is no other parameter or calculation involved.
True, but that's not what Blackbeard wrote. :-)
My point is, I expect the game to do the mechanical work and free me to do the interesting stuff - leveling my units. So I knownly abuse undo because it's the only way I can get the game to give me the info. Playing under FoW/Shroud/cave is less appealing without access to this info.

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Post by Eponymous-Archon »

Blackbeard wrote:My point is, I expect the game to do the mechanical work and free me to do the interesting stuff - leveling my units. So I knownly abuse undo because it's the only way I can get the game to give me the info. Playing under FoW/Shroud/cave is less appealing without access to this info.
I do the same thing, only I wouldn't call it "abuse". :-)

How else can you find out (and learn?) what attack details will be? Again, I ask whether other players do not do this? I suspect that everyone does to a greater or lesser degree. It should be easier to get this info.

FoW is a bit different because the unknown is part of the challenge.
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Post by Blackbeard »

Christophe33 wrote: ...
Arch Mage have basically as much HP than an elf champion and I think it is a bit too much (by about 10). Yes they can be killed in a round of melee with two troll warriors...but so do most lvl3 fighter units. They actually are not too bad against a few lvl1 units...not that I recommend it.
My bad, I was referring to the Great Mage (level 4). I use a 3 on 1 rule to measure a unit's defense (it takes 3 attackers to kill 1 defender in one round, all of the same level). So it should take 3 level 4 units to kill a Great Mage in one turn. Anything less than that (say 3 level 3 units) means, for its level, it is defensively weak.

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