LIttle settings comments

[Riox]

I played some and 2 points trouble me about the rules.

1. A unit get all his HP back when he level. Why? I remember again the Shock trooper going at me with little xp needed to level and telling me that I would have to kill him twice.
Someone could argue that its part of the Wesnoth strategy.

2. Upkeep for unit is 1 for each level of the unit. A level 2 unit is never twice as good as a level 1 but the upkeep is twice. I can see that in some situation someone with a lot of high level unit would be disadvantaged.

[irrevenant]

I played some and 2 points trouble me about the rules.
1. A unit get all his HP back when he level. Why? I remember again the Shock trooper going at me with little xp needed to level and telling me that I would have to kill him twice.
Someone could argue that its part of the Wesnoth strategy.

Please see the Frequently Proposed Ideas List.

2. Upkeep for unit is 1 for each level of the unit. A level 2 unit is never twice as good as a level 1 but the upkeep is twice. I can see that in some situation someone with a lot of high level unit would be disadvantaged.

Level 2 units are roughly twice as valuable as a level 1. Their value varies a bit based on the circumstance though and, as always, its up to the player to optimise the circumstances to their benefit.

[Riox]

Yes, your prolly right the value of a level 2 unit is prolly more toward twice the one of a level one than I think.

And if getting full HP at level up have been already discuted, fine, that was my goal here.

Still I think its strange to win a fight cause some of your unit leveled at the good moment. Not my idea of the strategy in a strategy game.

[Riox]

I am sorry for the lame idea, I didnt see the web page you mentionned earlier sorry.

I didnt expect reply.

[SmokemJags]

A level 2 unit is never twice as good as a level 1 but the upkeep is twice.

I beg to differ.
Elvish archer attacks 4 times at 5 damage each.
Elvish marksman attacks 4 times at 9 damage each. And has the marksman ability so his/her to-hit % is never below 60%.

I bet one entrenched marksman can beat two archers in equal entrechment.
Actually this reminds me of an idea... I'll make a thread for it.

I can see that in some situation someone with a lot of high level unit would be disadvantaged.

Since not all level two units are superior to a pair of level ones though...
Actually I think this is an issue that's been mentioned, someone brought up 'counter swarm tactics' somewhere.
Edit:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9736
Yea this thread.

[Dave]

2. Upkeep for unit is 1 for each level of the unit. A level 2 unit is never twice as good as a level 1 but the upkeep is twice. I can see that in some situation someone with a lot of high level unit would be disadvantaged.

The upkeep cost of a unit is only part of the cost of a unit: the other part is the cost of recruiting or recalling the unit. Often upkeep costs you nothing at all since you have villages which absorb it.

Given this, having higher level units is generally more powerful.

David

[Riox]

The upkeep cost of a unit is only part of the cost of a unit: the other part is the cost of recruiting or recalling the unit.

I can understand it if its the choice of te player to recruit the unit, upkeep is part of the price, take it or leave it. But as a result of leveling up its different, its imposed.

Often upkeep costs you nothing at all since you have villages which absorb it.

Its not because its absorbed by the villages that it dont hurt. In that case you get less money each turn and cant make less unit than your opponent.

Given this, having higher level units is generally more powerful.

Generally? Thats what im trying to say here, not in all case having high level unit is a good thing.

[appleide]

Another example. Troll, and Troll whelp. Trolls attack is 14-2, IIRC, and Whelp's is 7-2. Also, Troll got more hp. Even though its not double, he can survive more battles. (eg, taking 50 damage before running, while Whelps can't do that, they have less than 50 hp.) Also, the Troll got 5 moves, while Whelps has 4.

[Dave]

Often upkeep costs you nothing at all since you have villages which absorb it.

Its not because its absorbed by the villages that it dont hurt. In that case you get less money each turn and cant make less unit than your opponent.

No you don't get less money each turn.

If you have 8 villages, the 8 villages will give you 8 gold per turn, AND they will pay 8 upkeep for free.

If you have 4 first level units, their upkeep (4) will be absorbed by the villages, and each village will give you 1 gold, giving you an income of 8 gold per turn.

If you have 4 second level units, their upkeep (8) will be absorbed by the villages, and each village will give you 1 gold, giving you an income of 8 gold per turn.

Of course, sure, if you have 8 first level units, their upkeep (8) will be absorbed by the villages, giving you an income of 8 gold per turn, but 8 second level units will have an upkeep (16) that isn't entirely absorbed by the villages, leaving you with an income of 0.

Given this, having higher level units is generally more powerful.

Generally? Thats what im trying to say here, not in all case having high level unit is a good thing.

Sure, a higher level unit is occasionally worse than a lower level unit. This is very rare though.

David

[JW]

Generally? Thats what im trying to say here, not in all case having high level unit is a good thing.

I'd like to see you give a specific example you've had in your play exerience where you would have rather had a level 1 unit than its level 2 upgrade. That would help the discussion greatly I believe.

[SmokemJags]

I don't believe the heart of the matter is whether the level two is weaker than the level one.

A level 2 unit is never twice as good as a level 1 but the upkeep is twice.

Seems to me the question is...
Is one level 2 unit as strong as two level one units, because the author sees them costing twice as much in terms of upkeep.

Looking strictly in terms of upkeep, very few level 2 units can hold their ground against two level 1s, but if you factor in how much it costs to recruit or recall two units compared to one...
See where this is going?

[appleide]

I played some and 2 points trouble me about the rules.

1. A unit get all his HP back when he level. Why? I remember again the Shock trooper going at me with little xp needed to level and telling me that I would have to kill him twice.
Someone could argue that its part of the Wesnoth strategy.

2. Upkeep for unit is 1 for each level of the unit. A level 2 unit is never twice as good as a level 1 but the upkeep is twice. I can see that in some situation someone with a lot of high level unit would be disadvantaged.

And also, as you said, when a level 1 unit levels up, he gets full heal. . And since upkeep is very often absorbed by villages anyway, and considering how units with higher hp are more able to survive a battle, run away and heal again, I'd say having level 1 units levelling into level2s are worth it, even if their upkeep is twice as much.

[Riox]

Sure, a higher level unit is occasionally worse than a lower level unit. This is very rare though.

'd like to see you give a specific example you've had in your play exerience where you would have rather had a level 1 unit than its level 2 upgrade. That would help the discussion greatly I believe.

Thats not the point, its a level 2 unit as good as two level 1 unit?

I can give some exemples.

Wose ; HP:52 ; Attack: 12-2
Elder Wose ; HP:60 ; Attack: 18-2

Meman Hunter ; HP:30 ; Attack: 4-2 5-3
Merman Spearman ; HP:40 ; Attack: 6-2 6-4

Naga Fighter ; HP:33 ; Attack: 4-4
Naga Warrior ; HP:43 ; Attack: 7-4

Orchish Archer ; HP:32 ; Attack: 3-2 5-3 7-2
Orchish Crossbowman ; HP:43 ; Attack: 4-3 8-3 9-2

Nearly every units are good exemple.

That can bring another question, see this.
Dwarvish Guardsman ; HP:42 ; Attack: 5-3 5-1 ; Cost:19
Dwarvish Stalwart ; HP:48 ; Attack: 7-3 8-1 ; Cost:32

Maybe theres is something that I dont understand, but I would never recruit the level 2. Lots of unit are like that.

But its not too much of a problem cause the player have the choice or not to take level 2 unit.

I can understand it if its the choice of te player to recruit the unit, upkeep is part of the price, take it or leave it. But as a result of leveling up its different, its imposed.

But not when leveling up.

No you don't get less money each turn.

If you have 8 villages, the 8 villages will give you 8 gold per turn, AND they will pay 8 upkeep for free.

If you have 4 first level units, their upkeep (4) will be absorbed by the villages, and each village will give you 1 gold, giving you an income of 8 gold per turn.

If you have 4 second level units, their upkeep (Cool will be absorbed by the villages, and each village will give you 1 gold, giving you an income of 8 gold per turn.

Of course, sure, if you have 8 first level units, their upkeep (Cool will be absorbed by the villages, giving you an income of 8 gold per turn, but 8 second level units will have an upkeep (16) that isn't entirely absorbed by the villages, leaving you with an income of 0.

So in normal case it dont change a thing?
Does not its stange to see potential problem as inexistant because a situation rarely happen. Theres a lot of way to play wesnoth, lets say a game without city for exemple. Even tough its quite frequent all the upkeep will not be absorbed.

Even tough the point more important to me is the full hp at level up. Im interested to hear the purpose of that. Maybe theres log somewhere of pass debate?

I play only MP btw.

[Riox]

Btw im doing this to help even if that dont look like.

[Deathblower]

You should note that sometimes you only need a small amount of extra damage with an attack to kill a really annoying unit like a demilich.

This makes the unit more than twice as useful!

DB