[mainline] Melee "marksman"

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Celtic_Minstrel
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 4th, 2018, 12:10 am

If we're leaving it at "marksman" we should at least leave a translator's note so that the translators can pick a better term that wouldn't be entirely nonsensical for a sword or fiery breath (like, hrubymar's translation was probably a poor choice for this reason, for example).
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Pentarctagon » May 4th, 2018, 12:36 am

I'd still prefer "Proficiency".
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » May 4th, 2018, 1:15 am

It's not bad, but doesn't really get the intended meaning across in my opinion.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » March 14th, 2019, 9:35 pm

So did anything ever happen with this? Or was it just discussed and then forgotten like so many other DF topics?

Edit: was it decided that adding a duplicate special with similar name is bad or was it that no name could be agreed upon?

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 15th, 2019, 12:07 am

Discussed and forgotten, as far as I know. Personally I think that changing the name to something very generic would be best, like "accuracy". The meaning of "marksman" is already there in some of the unit names after all, so it's not really necessary to maintain it in the weapon special.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » March 15th, 2019, 5:57 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 12:07 am
Discussed and forgotten, as far as I know. Personally I think that changing the name to something very generic would be best, like "accuracy". The meaning of "marksman" is already there in some of the unit names after all, so it's not really necessary to maintain it in the weapon special.
^_^ Yes I thought as much.

I agree with your suggestion. Regardless of the DF faction the special marksman is used in much UMC content for weapons besides the bow. I believe it is commonly understood in english that marksman refers to archery so I believe accuracy would make more sense going forward as the term used.

I do understand that this would mark a change in a name that has been around for a decade and is very attached to wesnoth. However, I would remind everyone that the marskman line is the only primary unit with marksman and so it would still be easily identifiable. When players think about the word marksman they still would be thinking about this one unit and no complication would be added in regards to that, so there would be no disadvantage to the mainline game. As for the other mainline units with it (Glider, Dragon, Huntsman) they would arguably be better off without the special being named marksman.

The only major effect would be for other UMC units that would now have 'accuracy', and they would all make more sense, not less.

(Please everyone reading this topic respond what you think!)
Last edited by The_Gnat on March 15th, 2019, 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by sergey » March 15th, 2019, 7:43 am

Changing mainline "marksman" to "accuracy" sounds good. "accuracy" is better than "accurate", since the later may be different depending on the wielder's gender, at least in some languages.
The_Gnat wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 5:57 am
However, I would remind everyone that the marskman line is the only unit with marksman and so it would still be easily identifiable.
Besides the Elvish Marksman and Dune Soldier lines, next mainline units have marksman weapon special: Drake Glider line, Huntsman, Fire Dragon.

I checked several unit database translations and translated them back to English. Sorry if my translation is not very accurate :) The idea is to show that changing the mainline "marksman" to "accuracy" would encourage translators to choose a word that better fits both melee and ranged, which is not always true at the moment.

Russian "меткий" - "accurate"
Ukrainian "снайпер" - "sniper"
Bulgarian "майстор стрелец" - "master shooter"
Polish "strzelec wyborowy" - "marksman", "sharpshooter"
Italian "colpo preciso" - "precise shot", "precise strike"
French "tir d'élite" - "elite shot"
German "treffsicherheit" - "marksmanship", "accuracy"

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » March 15th, 2019, 7:22 pm

sergey wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 7:43 am
However, I would remind everyone that the marskman line is the only unit with marksman and so it would still be easily identifiable.
Drake Glider line, Huntsman, Fire Dragon.
:lol: :lol: :lol: When I wrote that sentence it must have been late at night. :eng:

Anyway, nevertheless besides the Huntsman the other units with marksman would make more sense with 'accuracy' (and I believe even the huntsman would be fine with a special called accuracy instead of marksman). As far as ranged attacks go 'accuracy' well describes the ability of a 'marksman' while also describing the ability anyone who is precise in their combat capability and so overall it makes sense to make this change.
sergey wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 7:43 am
I checked several unit database translations and translated them back to English. Sorry if my translation is not very accurate The idea is to show that changing the mainline "marksman" to "accuracy" would encourage translators to choose a word that better fits both melee and ranged, which is not always true at the moment.
Yes that is very interesting, and goes to show that in other languages the translation is also not entirely correct because of the reference to 'marksman'.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 16th, 2019, 12:56 am

sergey wrote:
March 15th, 2019, 7:43 am
Changing mainline "marksman" to "accuracy" sounds good. "accuracy" is better than "accurate", since the later may be different depending on the wielder's gender, at least in some languages.
I don't think that's a valid argument? Doesn't the engine already support varying the name based on gender? In fact, now that you mention it, "accurate" actually fits in better with other specials such as "magical".
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by nemaara » March 16th, 2019, 1:12 am

There's a few arguments that can be made, one of which you have provided in that marksman isn't a catch-all term that you can use for all units (and that's valid, there are more precise/generic terms you could use to describe them strictly better). On the other hand, this is a game, not only a bunch of code, so strictly using the most precise word isn't necessarily preferable to using a word that has some flavor to it, such as marksman. That's why, while I'm not opposed to changing the special's name to something besides marksman, it seems to me that just using some generic term like "accuracy" is something that only makes the game more generic as well (i.e. it has less of its own style).

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Tad_Carlucci » March 16th, 2019, 1:39 am

Ya know, if a thread arrives at a decision, to avoid that decision being forgotten by the programmers, it's best to create a GitHub Issue for the idea, referencing the discussion thread.

Just say'n
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » March 16th, 2019, 3:36 am

Tad_Carlucci wrote:
March 16th, 2019, 1:39 am
Ya know, if a thread arrives at a decision, to avoid that decision being forgotten by the programmers, it's best to create a GitHub Issue for the idea, referencing the discussion thread.

Just say'n
Yes that is a good thought, though the factors weighing for and against are arguably equal at this point. So we might not reach a decision yet.

What do you think?

As I see it, the question is merely a comparison of whether we believe generic but factually applicable words are better than thematic but perhaps less accurate terms. Some people think one thing, some people think the other.

If we consider other abilities in wesnoth 'slow' 'charge' 'plague' 'backstab' it seems we have examples of both used in the game.

For attacks that have 'slow' the name is fairly generic and applies to many weapons. In contrast backstabbing is a more thematic term rather than a technical or factual description.
nemaara wrote:
March 16th, 2019, 1:12 am
There's a few arguments that can be made, one of which you have provided in that marksman isn't a catch-all term that you can use for all units (and that's valid, there are more precise/generic terms you could use to describe them strictly better). On the other hand, this is a game, not only a bunch of code, so strictly using the most precise word isn't necessarily preferable to using a word that has some flavor to it, such as marksman. That's why, while I'm not opposed to changing the special's name to something besides marksman, it seems to me that just using some generic term like "accuracy" is something that only makes the game more generic as well (i.e. it has less of its own style).
That is another good thing to consider but I personally believe that for many attacks (such as drake breath or DF sword) the more flavourful term is less descriptive because of its over specificity.

I do agree though that it is not ideal to make the game generic... Marksman is a nice term but only really for units that shoot things.

Honestly I am not fully decided for or against this argument.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 16th, 2019, 5:05 am

I'm not against a word that has more "flavour" if one can be agreed on – a few such words were proposed in this thread. But I'd still prefer one that doesn't strongly imply a ranged attack.

The simplest, easiest choice would be either "accuracy" or "precision", and I would be pretty much okay with using one of them, but they do have a number of problems:
  1. There's a separate concept in the engine called "accuracy", so it might confuse developers. (It's not shown to the players as "accuracy" though.)
  2. Some people have used the term "precision" for an 80% chance to hit. It doesn't make sense for "accuracy" to be worse than "precision".
  3. Doesn't work well for all types of attacks. It's fine for a sword or spear used in melee or for any type of projectile, physical or magical; but it's not so great for melee impact attacks such as a mace or club, and it doesn't really work at all for some types of non-physical or magical attacks.
There have been a number of suggestions that give the implication of proficiency with their weapon, but these too have problems. They're a bit vague (you can be proficient at anything, not just fighting), a bit insulting in some cases (you'd think all the fighters are proficient with their chosen weapon or mode of attack), and there isn't any obvious connection between proficiency and an increased hit chance.

Another option might be something like "true strike" or a variant thereof. But there might be attacks that can't really be described as a "strike"? The option "unerring" works well but doesn't sound good and also gives an implication of always hitting.

Perhaps the best option would be to think of something that has nothing to do with accuracy and precision, yet still gives some implication of an increased hit chance. But other than "luck" or "fortune", neither of which are remotely suitable, I can't think of anything like that.
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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by The_Gnat » March 16th, 2019, 5:13 am

@Celtic - Yes there are definitely problems with using accuracy or precision but I agree that no alternative term has yet been suggested which is a cure-all to this issue.

A list of other possible words that comes to mind are : Enhanced, Aim, Skilled, Expert, Relentless

But I think personally that no one word is likely to add both flavour and be applicable to all circumstances. So it is a hard choice.

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Re: [mainline] Melee "marksman"

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » March 16th, 2019, 6:58 am

Other than "relentless", all those suggestions fall into the same problems as other suggestions. And "relentless" doesn't seem to make sense to me, though maybe someone else could think of a logical way to explain it.
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