[mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit names

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What should the Shuja -> Khalid be named?

Poll ended at February 2nd, 2018, 2:11 am

Dune Blademaster -> Dune Conqueror
4
24%
Dune Blademaster -> Dune Warmaster
6
35%
Dune Blademaster -> Dune Warlord
3
18%
Dune Champion -> Dune Warmaster
1
6%
Dune Champion -> Dune Conqueror
3
18%
 
Total votes: 17

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 21st, 2018, 8:55 pm

Xalzar wrote:
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Xalzar's names seem fine, except for the naffat line.
What's wrong with the Naffat line? I mean, you could be absolutely right - could you expand you thought? :hmm:
Maybe do you prefer to have names revolving around "fire"? (like Firespitter, Firethrower etc.)
I haven't seen a single set of names for the naffat line that I was satisfied with. Your names are serviceable, but not very interesting. Sigurd's names are interesting, but perhaps a little awkward. Neither is really that great, though neither is bad either. I prefer Sigurd's so far.

I do think it would be nice to somehow reference the jinn in the L3 though, but I still have no idea how.
Pentarctagon wrote:
Xalzar wrote:Yep. What are the names who truly are accepted at this point?
Trying to compile the list, correct me if I'm wrong:
Arif -> Dune Infantry
Mudafi -> Dune Spearguard
Rasikh -> Dune Spearmaster
Hakim -> Dune Herbalist
Mufariq -> Dune Cataphract
Qanas -> Dune Raider
Hadaf -> Dune Marauder
Saree -> Dune Swiftrider
Jawal -> Dune Windrider
Khalid -> Dune Warmaster: I don't think there have been any objections to this so far.
Tabib -> Dune Physician: I am alright with this one as well, if no one else has any objections.
Rami -> Dune Rider: I also don't really have a problem with this one. The name "Rider" is re-used, but I think in this case the "Dune" prefix makes it sound different enough.
My only two objections to this list: 1. I think I slightly prefer "Soldier" to "Infantry"; and 2. I'm still unsatisfied with the khalid name. It works, but it's not great in my opinion.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 21st, 2018, 11:52 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:My only two objections to this list: 1. I think I slightly prefer "Soldier" to "Infantry"; and 2. I'm still unsatisfied with the khalid name. It works, but it's not great in my opinion.
Alright, so, the accepted names list then becomes:
Mudafi -> Dune Spearguard
Rasikh -> Dune Spearmaster
Hakim -> Dune Herbalist
Tabib -> Dune Physician
Mufariq -> Dune Cataphract
Qanas -> Dune Raider
Hadaf -> Dune Marauder
Rami -> Dune Rider
Saree -> Dune Swiftrider
Jawal -> Dune Windrider
The re-used names list remains:
Ghazi -> Dune Swordsman
Shuja -> Dune Blademaster
Khaiyal -> Dune Horseman, Piercer
Faris -> Dune Lancer, Sunderer
The entire Jundi line.
And the "other issues" list is:
Arif -> Dune Infantry, Dune Soldier
Khalid -> Dune Warmaster
The entire Naffat line.
---

Before we get into the rest of it then, is there anyone who objects to Khaiyal and Faris being renamed to Piercer and Sunderer, respectively?
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by SigurdFireDragon » January 22nd, 2018, 5:43 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:Alright, so, the accepted names list then becomes:
Mudafi -> Dune Spearguard
Rasikh -> Dune Spearmaster
Hakim -> Dune Herbalist
Tabib -> Dune Physician
Mufariq -> Dune Cataphract
Qanas -> Dune Raider
Hadaf -> Dune Marauder
Rami -> Dune Rider
Saree -> Dune Swiftrider
Jawal -> Dune Windrider
The only one I have an issue with is Physician. It's reasonable, but I think Alchemist or Apothecary would do a better job of adding a fantasy feel.
Pentarctagon wrote:Before we get into the rest of it then, is there anyone who objects to Khaiyal and Faris being renamed to Piercer and Sunderer, respectively?
When I suggested Horseman, it was part of playing around with adding more literal descriptions.
I think Piercer is better, it is more flavorful while still being descriptive. (ala Drake Clasher type flavorful)
Not sure which would make a better progression path to Cataphract, Lancer or Sunderer.

While I think it's reasonable to avoid some duplication of use, I don't think it's possible to avoid all of it.

Random thought for Jundi to lessen duplication: Fighter -> Mercenary -> Gladiator

When I first dug up using Skirmisher for the Monawish, from some of the translation posts, I considered Flanker for the L3, but went with Commando as it seemed to have more zing to it.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Xalzar » January 22nd, 2018, 11:20 pm

SigurdFireDragon wrote: The only one I have an issue with is Physician. It's reasonable, but I think Alchemist or Apothecary would do a better job of adding a fantasy feel.
Undoubtely Physician gives a more "scientific medic" feel, while Alchemist and Apothecary leave more space to strange fantasy concoctions. I have no particular preference between these three names.
SigurdFireDragon wrote: Random thought for Jundi to lessen duplication: Fighter -> Mercenary -> Gladiator
Gladiator is quite out of place IMO, being an Ancient Roman term which has nothing to do with the unit. :augh:
SigurdFireDragon wrote: When I first dug up using Skirmisher for the Monawish, from some of the translation posts, I considered Flanker for the L3, but went with Commando as it seemed to have more zing to it.
Commando is too modern-sounding for my tastes (it's been used since the 17th century, and Wesnoth has a High Fantasy feel = Medieval times, baby! :lol: )

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 23rd, 2018, 12:02 am

Xalzar wrote:
SigurdFireDragon wrote: The only one I have an issue with is Physician. It's reasonable, but I think Alchemist or Apothecary would do a better job of adding a fantasy feel.
Undoubtely Physician gives a more "scientific medic" feel, while Alchemist and Apothecary leave more space to strange fantasy concoctions. I have no particular preference between these three names.
Let's got with Apothecary then. Mostly I just don't really like Alchemist, given its more pseudo-scientific connotation.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:While I think it's reasonable to avoid some duplication of use, I don't think it's possible to avoid all of it.
It's not something that I think we can completely avoid, but it should be something everyone's at least aware of.
SigurdFireDragon wrote:
Pentarctagon wrote:Before we get into the rest of it then, is there anyone who objects to Khaiyal and Faris being renamed to Piercer and Sunderer, respectively?
When I suggested Horseman, it was part of playing around with adding more literal descriptions.
I think Piercer is better, it is more flavorful while still being descriptive. (ala Drake Clasher type flavorful)
Not sure which would make a better progression path to Cataphract, Lancer or Sunderer.
Advancing to Cataphract both sound about the same. I think Sunderer sounds a lot better advancing from Piercer, though.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 23rd, 2018, 2:06 am

SigurdFireDragon wrote:The only one I have an issue with is Physician. It's reasonable, but I think Alchemist or Apothecary would do a better job of adding a fantasy feel.
Pentarctagon wrote:Let's got with Apothecary then. Mostly I just don't really like Alchemist, given its more pseudo-scientific connotation.
Alchemy is also the ancestor of modern chemistry, though, so it carries both a scientific connotation and a fantasy connotation. On the other hand, the lack of fantasy connotations in physician was kinda the point, since the dunefolk don't really use magic to any great degree. Apothecary on the other hand seems like the most straightforward upgrade for an herbalist, which also (in my opinion) makes it less interesting.

I think my preference in order of best to worst would be physician, alchemist, apothecary. It's a close call though.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Xara » January 23rd, 2018, 9:21 am

If you're really changing the unit names, please provide with an alias in core.
It pronounces Sha'ha, not Zara.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Shiki » January 23rd, 2018, 5:43 pm

You mean for compatibility with add-ons? E.g.
Spoiler:
While it's possible, I don't know if it's really helpful, because there was already the change of the race name, and for the race name it's not possible to do that. So, all filters with race=khalifate are broken.
Assuming you have an alias for the unit types but didn't update all occurrences of the race in your scenario code, the campaign would look like it is working, but some events just won't trigger, and from a player view you wouldn't know why. :whistle:
It may be harmful to add such an only halfworking backwards compatibility.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Caladbolg » January 23rd, 2018, 6:08 pm

Pentarctagon wrote: Alright, so, the accepted names list then becomes:
Mudafi -> Dune Spearguard
Rasikh -> Dune Spearmaster
Hakim -> Dune Herbalist
Tabib -> Dune Physician
Mufariq -> Dune Cataphract
Qanas -> Dune Raider
Hadaf -> Dune Marauder
Rami -> Dune Rider
Saree -> Dune Swiftrider
Jawal -> Dune Windrider

Before we get into the rest of it then, is there anyone who objects to Khaiyal and Faris being renamed to Piercer and Sunderer, respectively?
I agree with the names on the list and with the Piercer->Sunderer, but I prefer Apothecary over Physician.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by SigurdFireDragon » January 23rd, 2018, 8:23 pm

Caladbolg wrote:I agree with the names on the list and with the Piercer->Sunderer, but I prefer Apothecary over Physician.
I'm in favor of both of these as well.

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 24th, 2018, 1:08 am

Alright, that makes the accepted names list:
Mudafi -> Dune Spearguard
Rasikh -> Dune Spearmaster
Hakim -> Dune Herbalist
Tabib -> Dune Apothecary
Khaiyal -> Dune Piercer
Faris -> Dune Sunderer
Mufariq -> Dune Cataphract
Qanas -> Dune Raider
Hadaf -> Dune Marauder
Rami -> Dune Rider
Saree -> Dune Swiftrider
Jawal -> Dune Windrider
The undecided names list:
Ghazi -> Dune Swordsman
Shuja -> Dune Blademaster
Arif -> Dune Infantry, Dune Soldier
Khalid -> Dune Warmaster
The entire Jundi line.
The entire Naffat line.
If there are any objections to the above, I'll add them to the "undecided names" list, but otherwise I plan to update the first post with what's been decided so far as well as start the voting tomorrow, since as per Vultraz on Discord today the next release will be on February 4th:
next-release.png
---
Xara wrote:If you're really changing the unit names, please provide with an alias in core.
Shiki wrote:You mean for compatibility with add-ons? E.g.
Spoiler:
While it's possible, I don't know if it's really helpful, because there was already the change of the race name, and for the race name it's not possible to do that. So, all filters with race=khalifate are broken.
Assuming you have an alias for the unit types but didn't update all occurrences of the race in your scenario code, the campaign would look like it is working, but some events just won't trigger, and from a player view you wouldn't know why. :whistle:
It may be harmful to add such an only halfworking backwards compatibility.
The race renaming had a fair amount done to try to keep backwards compatibility through 1.14. However much is done for the unit renaming though, there will at the very least be wmllint entries for the name changes.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by SigurdFireDragon » January 24th, 2018, 5:03 am

A bunch of Naffat suggestions, does anyone think any of these 'click' or would go well with something else?

Burner -> Flamer -> Scorcher
Burner -> Firebrand -> Scorcher
Burner -> Scorcher -> Pyro
Burner -> Torcher -> Scorcher

Flamer -> Firebrand -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Firebrand -> Pyrotrooper
Flamer -> Burner -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Torcher -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Scorcher -> Pyro
Flamer -> Pyrotrooper -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Scorcher -Pyrotrooper
Flamer -> Scorcher -> Annihilator
Flamer -> Firebrand -> Pyro

Torcher -> Flamer -> Scorcher
Torcher -> Scorcher - Pyro
Torcher -> Firebrand -> Pyro
Torcher -> Firebrand -> Scorcher

Pyro -> Scorcher -> Annihilator

Firebrand -> Scorcher -> Pyro

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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by ForestDragon » January 24th, 2018, 7:23 am

how about "Arsonist > Scorcher > Pyromaniac" for Naffat?
also, a few ideas for Jundi:
Mercenary > Veteran > ? (undecided)
Light Infantry > Mercenary > Veteran
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 25th, 2018, 1:01 am

I've updated the first post, and started the poll for the Arif and Ghazi. The poll will run for two days, and each person gets three choices. Assuming one choice doesn't win by a landslide, there will then be a runoff vote on the top three choices.
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Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 25th, 2018, 5:20 am

Xara wrote:If you're really changing the unit names, please provide with an alias in core.
Shiki wrote:You mean for compatibility with add-ons? E.g.
Spoiler:
While it's possible, I don't know if it's really helpful, because there was already the change of the race name, and for the race name it's not possible to do that. So, all filters with race=khalifate are broken.
Assuming you have an alias for the unit types but didn't update all occurrences of the race in your scenario code, the campaign would look like it is working, but some events just won't trigger, and from a player view you wouldn't know why. :whistle:
It may be harmful to add such an only halfworking backwards compatibility.
Since race=khalifate still exists for backwards compatibility, I guess the backwards compatibility units would be basically what Shiki shows here, with the race changed to khalifate so that filters still work
SigurdFireDragon wrote:A bunch of Naffat suggestions, does anyone think any of these 'click' or would go well with something else?

Burner -> Flamer -> Scorcher
Burner -> Firebrand -> Scorcher
Burner -> Scorcher -> Pyro
Burner -> Torcher -> Scorcher

Flamer -> Firebrand -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Firebrand -> Pyrotrooper
Flamer -> Burner -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Torcher -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Scorcher -> Pyro
Flamer -> Pyrotrooper -> Scorcher
Flamer -> Scorcher -Pyrotrooper
Flamer -> Scorcher -> Annihilator
Flamer -> Firebrand -> Pyro

Torcher -> Flamer -> Scorcher
Torcher -> Scorcher - Pyro
Torcher -> Firebrand -> Pyro
Torcher -> Firebrand -> Scorcher

Pyro -> Scorcher -> Annihilator

Firebrand -> Scorcher -> Pyro
Hmm. Firebrand still seems the best of these, but pyrotrooper also doesn't sound bad... although, isn't it a bit too Greek for a Middle-Eastern-type faction?
ForestDragon wrote:how about "Arsonist > Scorcher > Pyromaniac" for Naffat?
Arsonist has criminal implications. Pyromaniac suggests insanity, though I guess only mildly. I definitely don't like arsonist, at least. I'm not fond of pyromaniac, but maybe I could be convinced.
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