Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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Would you play this sort of senario?

I guess, if somebody else made it
12
44%
I would be interested in contributing to such senarios
3
11%
Depends what mood I was in
4
15%
I wish you luck but I couldn't care less
4
15%
I think this goes against the spirit of Wesnoth
4
15%
 
Total votes : 27

Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Samonella » March 3rd, 2017, 10:25 pm

Midnight_Carnival wrote:edit:
sent S the first proto-map (small and not impressive) feel free to pass it around and make as many functional and cosmetic changes as you like, I'm not exactly proud of this one, it is a place holder.

Wow, I like it a lot! Definitely looks the part of a crispy, harsh battle field. It doesn't match what I was imagining (lol at all) but it could still work well. I put it in the maps folder of the add-on here, but didn't set it to be the scenario's map because I'm not sure which sides are supposed to be human players. Also, I take it this map wouldn't need they east-west border teleporting?

To give you guys a better idea of what I was imagining, I sketched a map onto the previously blank one. It doesn't look nice at all, and it doesn't even have any villages; it just shows the general map design I had been imagining. Basically, there are three levels in-between the starting points and the dragon, so each time the players get units past one the game would get harder. Another feature is that it keeps the players at close quarters with each other, and forces them to interact more and more as they get closer to the dragon.

On a different note, here are a couple big-picture questions:

Do the players get to choose their own faction (or even their own era) or will we choose a set of units each player must use that's appropriate for the map? (For example, a team with no flying or no swimming units so we could use chasm/water as ways for the dragon to send units out w/out the players being able to get in, or no dwarves so we can use lots of mountains without giving anyone a huge advantage)

What exactly will the rules regarding winning/losing be? If one player gets finished off, that upsets the balance of the whole game, so I was thinking everyone loses if any leader dies. The only way to win would be to deal the killing blow to the Eternal Dragon, and when/if you do the other players instantly lose (even if they had been working with you at the moment). Is that what you guys were imagining?
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby The_Gnat » March 3rd, 2017, 11:46 pm

Samonella wrote:Do the players get to choose their own faction (or even their own era) or will we choose a set of units each player must use that's appropriate for the map? (For example, a team with no flying or no swimming units so we could use chasm/water as ways for the dragon to send units out w/out the players being able to get in, or no dwarves so we can use lots of mountains without giving anyone a huge advantage)


Hmm... I personally believe we should recommend an era that we have created. What we could do is create a slightly modified version of the Default Faction (which excludes drakes and other particular units). But if a host would like to use a different era it is fine.

Samonella wrote:What exactly will the rules regarding winning/losing be? If one player gets finished off, that upsets the balance of the whole game, so I was thinking everyone loses if any leader dies. The only way to win would be to deal the killing blow to the Eternal Dragon, and when/if you do the other players instantly lose (even if they had been working with you at the moment). Is that what you guys were imagining?


Well the way i see it: If everyone looses on death then it becomes completely cooperative undermining one of the main features.

I think that we can make it that as soon as the Eternal Dragon is killed a message appears and says "Player 1has put the Eternal Dragon to sleep and is victorious". We would then kill all the other players leaders, thereby ending the combat.

If a human leader dies it doesn't really matter because all it does is stop that player from winning. (even if he does kill the Eternal Dragon he still looses) The player can choose to continue playing if they want with their remaining units. Obviously it will make it harder for other players to kill the dragon without that dead players help... but maybe that player was attacking the other humans and it is better for them that he is dead.

We can also (if we find it necessary) add a checker that gives the dragon and other computer teams less gold (or less recruits) for every human player that dies.

I think it is good to make the other players instantly lose upon the dragons death because this will add to the underhanded play. (and when you get near the dragon my soldier who is taking a nap next to your castle will suddenly attack and kill your leader :twisted: )

Also i think we should allow for multiple difficulty levels. (we might have to create a campaign to do this, or we could use a modification we a adjustable slider bar for different difficulty levels) Lower difficulty would allow more fighting between players.

(this will be really awesome! :D )
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Midnight_Carnival » March 4th, 2017, 3:18 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
It wasn't the way I thought the map would look either, but I thought we should start somewhere!

Now I can see what you have in mind.

As for Drakes and Dwarves:
Drakes are recruited by the Eternal Dragon so a Drake side would be unlikely ... or uncomfortable I suppose.
Dwarves would have an advantage in the mountainous map (there has to be a mountain in the centre) but I think this could be balanced by adding swamps and maybe snow or forests which would give advantages to other races(?)

My idea for the winning conditions:
Slaying the Dragon need not be the only way to win the game (but it would be a necessary condition for victory anyway).

I had an idea about a trail of blood which would appear one tile at a time and go somewhere on the map (a different place every time) and while following the blood trail, there would be no alliances.

The other idea I had was that the Outcast leader would swipe the Dragon's loot a leg it for the nearest edge of the map.
If nobody stops him then the Dragon-slayer wins. Otherwise the person who gets the gold wins.

- For now I think it is best that we just go with killing the Dragon wins you the scenario - we can see about the more inventive victory conditions later.

:augh: I don't know and don't have an opinion on what happens when a human team leader dies. It is at it's core a (mostly) co-operative scenario, not a straight-out battle between human controlled sides so...

edit:
I do agree with much of what The_Gnat says regarding underhanded play... anyway.

Samonella: could you PM me your map template please? I saw it as a text file on your site and didn't know how to download it :doh:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Samonella » March 4th, 2017, 5:17 pm

Midnight_Carnival wrote:As for Drakes and Dwarves:
Drakes are recruited by the Eternal Dragon so a Drake side would be unlikely ... or uncomfortable I suppose.
Dwarves would have an advantage in the mountainous map (there has to be a mountain in the centre) but I think this could be balanced by adding swamps and maybe snow or forests which would give advantages to other races(?)
So it sounds like you want to use the default era? Personally I agree with this because it's easy, but having an era specifically for this that disallows flying/swimming units (and the whole drake faction) wouldn't be hard either.

Midnight_Carnival wrote:I had an idea about a trail of blood which would appear one tile at a time and go somewhere on the map (a different place every time) and while following the blood trail, there would be no alliances.
So what is at the end of this trail of blood? What do you mean by "no alliances," just that any units within x hexes of the trail can attack whomever they want? I have an idea of how to implement that, but it would not be easy. (Making a random trail of blood with one new hex appearing each turn would be though). What happens if the trail happens to randomly lead to the dragon, or should that be impossible? How long is the trail? :lol: I guess I just don't understand what it's supposed to do.

Midnight_Carnival wrote:The other idea I had was that the Outcast leader would swipe the Dragon's loot a leg it for the nearest edge of the map.
If nobody stops him then the Dragon-slayer wins. Otherwise the person who gets the gold wins.
Hmm, interesting. But if he's running in a random direction, couldn't that give one team a huge advantage and chance to win early?

Midnight_Carnival wrote: :augh: I don't know and don't have an opinion on what happens when a human team leader dies. It is at it's core a (mostly) co-operative scenario, not a straight-out battle between human controlled sides so...

edit:
I do agree with much of what The_Gnat says regarding underhanded play... anyway.
The_Gnat wrote:If a human leader dies it doesn't really matter because all it does is stop that player from winning. (even if he does kill the Eternal Dragon he still looses) The player can choose to continue playing if they want with their remaining units. Obviously it will make it harder for other players to kill the dragon without that dead players help... but maybe that player was attacking the other humans and it is better for them that he is dead.
First off, the dragon's gold (and probably the other sides' gold too) is determined by the net worth of the humans' combined forces. So if only one side is left, the dragon's income already accounts for that. (At least i suggested that, and no one objected, so it's implemented now. Still could change if there's a good reason.)

Hmm, so the thing is that the rock-paper-scissors should really, really encourage players to not completely kill another side because that gives the third side free, unchecked power to attack the side that finished the other off. The whole thing is a game of balance; if the other teams are on the front lines, they're taking the brunt of the dragon's attack (good), but they also have a better chance at killing the dragon (bad). If you get more powerful than the other teams, you have a better chance of killing the dragon (good), but they're likely to start working together against you (bad). You want your victim side to be powerful so they can control your prey side (good), but if they get too powerful you won't be able to control them (bad). The way I see it, we have three options for dealing with a leader's death:
  1. Make it a feature: from a coding perspective, nothing happens when a side leader dies. If you kill your victim side's leader, you've just signed your own death warrant because it won't be long before your prey side finishes you off. That would mean they win the game because there's no one to stop them from eventually killing the dragon, or we could even make them win immediately.
  2. Killing one leader leaves the other two in a FFA. As soon as one leader dies, the remaining teams can fight it out as much as they like. I don't like this idea because it makes the rock-paper-scissors thing much less important.
  3. Everyone loses if any leader dies. This means that each side wants the other two sides to be comparatively weak, but still alive. It also ensures that the rock-paper-scissors play will be part of the game until someone wins (presumably by killing the Eternal Dragon).
The last few months have been nothing but one big, painful reminder that TIMTLTW.

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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby The_Gnat » March 5th, 2017, 2:10 am

Hello.

Firstly: i believe it would be best to go with option [b]1.[\b] that Samonella suggested. It seems to best fit the ideas we have discussed so far and it also best encourages underhanded cooperative play. Also i think that it is best to not have the outlaw or and other random means (such as a blood trail) allow a player to win, because this would very easily (as samonella has pointed out) lead to an unbalanced game.

Secondly: i have created a quick recreation of the default era without drakes, bats, merman, nagas, grpyhons and falcons. I have uploaded it to the 1.12 add-on database, named "The Default and AOH [no flying]". We can add it as a dependency to this scenario. The only thing i would like to discuss is the undead factions ghosts. Without ghosts the undead will have an extreme disadvantage. Should i remove the ghosts, leave the ghosts, or remove the entire undead team? (this era can be further tested later for balances once we have completed the more important things.) I believe without the gryphon rider the knalgan alliance needs a outlaw horse rider.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Samonella » March 5th, 2017, 4:47 am

The_Gnat wrote:i have created a quick recreation of the default era without drakes, bats, merman, nagas, grpyhons and falcons. I have uploaded it to the 1.12 add-on database, named "The Default and AOH [no flying]". We can add it as a dependency to this scenario. The only thing i would like to discuss is the undead factions ghosts. Without ghosts the undead will have an extreme disadvantage. Should i remove the ghosts, leave the ghosts, or remove the entire undead team? (this era can be further tested later for balances once we have completed the more important things.) I believe without the gryphon rider the knalgan alliance needs a outlaw horse rider.

Sounds good to me. Is it possible to combine the faction into our add-on, so the players only have to download one thing? That would be better imo, and I assume it's possible, though I've never made an add-on era.

Personally, I'm in favor of forcing the teams to use one of our designed factions by resetting recruit lists during the scenario start, but if I'm swimming alone then of course we can leave that up to the game host.

As for undead, they probably shouldn't be allowed; if we're planning to disallow all swimming units, skeletons should probably be disallowed too (submerge). Also, it would be good if there were lots of enemy (ai) undead, since they have almost opposite resistances to drakes. If you were fighting just drakes everyone would spam pierce units, but with the dragon also recruiting undead the only OP damage type is arcane, which is widely unavailable to lvl 1s (especially non-undead lvl 1s).

Knalgans without gryphon rider: hmm, yeah i agree that's an important unit, especially in this kind of game where flexibility is required. But since it sounds like plenty of hills/mountain is unavoidable, I wouldn't worry about disadvantaging them yet. Like you said, it's not like our decision here has to be final anyway.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Midnight_Carnival » March 8th, 2017, 4:18 pm

I'm still kind of wondering why people feel that this sort of scenario goes against the spirit of Wesnoth :augh:
Maybe people think that Wesnoth is at it's core a human vs human linear strategy game where sides are set, all variables are known (except the random chance bit which some want to abolish anyway :doh: ) and it is basically reduced to a competitive sport(?)

It can be this yes, but it can also be much more besides without detracting from this.
Above all, to me Wesnoth is fun, if you feel that winning is fun and Wesnoth is one of the few things you can win at, then I wish you all the best, but it seems that not everyone sees Wesnoth as you do.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby The_Gnat » March 10th, 2017, 4:58 am

Midnight_Carnival wrote:It can be this yes, but it can also be much more besides without detracting from this.
Above all, to me Wesnoth is fun, if you feel that winning is fun and Wesnoth is one of the few things you can win at, then I wish you all the best, but it seems that not everyone sees Wesnoth as you do.


I have found that there are always stubborn people we are unwilling to except change, however, in my opinion Wesnoth's most valuable aspect is its ability to be modified. Because of this i feel it is not, in fact, going against the spirit of Wesnoth, but instead it is the spirit of Wesnoth - to create unique modifications. 8)

Samonella wrote:Sounds good to me. Is it possible to combine the faction into our add-on, so the players only have to download one thing? That would be better imo, and I assume it's possible, though I've never made an add-on era.


We could do that, (very easy) or we could add the no flying era as a dependency. If we add it as a dependency then the wesnoth game would prompt the player to also download the no flying era when they download this scenario (even easier, and in my opinion better).

Samonella wrote:As for undead, they probably shouldn't be allowed; if we're planning to disallow all swimming units, skeletons should probably be disallowed too (submerge).


Good idea, i have removed the undead.

Samonella wrote:Also, it would be good if there were lots of enemy (ai) undead, since they have almost opposite resistances to drakes. If you were fighting just drakes everyone would spam pierce units, but with the dragon also recruiting undead the only OP damage type is arcane, which is widely unavailable to lvl 1s (especially non-undead lvl 1s).


We could do that or we could add the undead as a third team (like the swamp woses and outlaws), either would be a good idea - but i personally think that a dragon recruit skeletons does not really fit - it would need some explaining (which idea do you think is better)

Samonella wrote:Knalgans without gryphon rider: hmm, yeah i agree that's an important unit, especially in this kind of game where flexibility is required. But since it sounds like plenty of hills/mountain is unavoidable, I wouldn't worry about disadvantaging them yet. Like you said, it's not like our decision here has to be final anyway.


I agree about the Dwarves And yes definitely none of this should be final!
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Midnight_Carnival » March 10th, 2017, 8:33 pm

The_Gnat wrote:
I have found that there are always stubborn people we are unwilling to except change, however, in my opinion Wesnoth's most valuable aspect is its ability to be modified. Because of this i feel it is not, in fact, going against the spirit of Wesnoth, but instead it is the spirit of Wesnoth - to create unique modifications. 8)


I agree completely.

Ok, I've made the Dragon Pizza map and play-tested it as random faction with no alliances and all teams random - the point of this was to see if there were any players' starting positions which were disadvantageous. I obviously didn't use the map settings (still being coded!) and just saw how it would go. The middle players in ruined castles were the fist to die - this is acceptable to me because the settings would mean that these leaders re-spawn every 15 turns or so - also there is the appearing and disappearing phantasmal castles.

This is not the final form of the map, but I think it should be sufficient for the purposes of starting somewhere.

On custom factions and Undead.
My opinion is yes to both.
We are already including custom factions - Dragon forces = Drakes minus Saurians, Outcasts and Woses so if players get different factions it's fine by me.

My ideas for Woses: all natural units, Woses, Wolves, Spiders, Gryphons(?) and Bats(? :augh: ) or weren't there Falcons in Caliphate(?) Mud Globs( :augh: )- no humanoid units.

My ideas for Outcasts: a chaotic 'alliance' of human outlaw untis (including thugs), Saurians, Ogres and perhaps even Nagas(?)

Incidentally, when I play-tested the map I made, the Drake sides gave me the most trouble, which I think bodes well for the senario.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby The_Gnat » March 10th, 2017, 9:24 pm

Midnight_Carnival wrote:My ideas for Woses: all natural units, Woses, Wolves, Spiders, Gryphons(?) and Bats(? :augh: ) or weren't there Falcons in Caliphate(?) Mud Globs( :augh: )- no humanoid units.

My ideas for Outcasts: a chaotic 'alliance' of human outlaw untis (including thugs), Saurians, Ogres and perhaps even Nagas(?)


I will have a look at the map and post feedback (if i have anything useful to say ;) ).

As for the AI factions i personally believe that the Outcasts should not include Saurians (or nagas) but instead humanoid units to contrast the swamp woses. (its not like a saurian would ever work with a outlaw, and Saurians are classic swamp units so they definitely should be part of the Swamp Wose team!)

So the outlaws might be able to recruit:
- Footpad
- Poacher
- Thug
- Thief
- Ruffian
- Peasant
- Ogre

(EXTRA possiblities)

- fencer
- rogue shaman
Image


Also i personally think we should keep the swamp woses to an alliance of units that could possibly work together. (i am an advocate of strong backstories) Because of this i would think that though bats and mud globs could possibly work with the swamp woses gryphons and falcons never would. But I would suggest that we not put bats or flying units in for the swamp wose team. The human players would be restricted to no flying units so i think it best to have the dragons team as the only team that can fly.

So the woses might be able to recruit:
- wose
- saurian skirmisher
- saurian auger
- naga fighter
- wolf

(EXTRA POSSIBILITIES)

- wose sappling (a lvl 0 wose)
Image
- wose shaman (a ranged wose)
Image
- saurian crossbowman
Image
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Midnight_Carnival » March 10th, 2017, 10:25 pm

Interesting.

I'm not sure about Saurians being part of the forces of nature, but it is worth considering.
Also which units would be the potential leaders of each side is worth considering.
Also, I was thinking that if the Undead appear, they should only do so after X number of turns. Players who stockpile piercing units to fight the Drakes would suddenly find themselves at a major disadvantage.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby The_Gnat » March 10th, 2017, 11:42 pm

Good idea about the undead! :D

As for leaders we could just randomly choose a level 2 (or should it be 3?) unit from the units they can recruit. But the leaders should be limited to not ogres for the outcast team and only woses for the swamp wose team.
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Samonella » March 11th, 2017, 12:51 am

K, the server is updated. Now the scenario uses the latest map. I slightly edited it (the map) to allow better movement for non-dwarves just outside the cave-mouth. Also, I'm not a fan of the rivers running vertically through the map; at least we should add frequent fords, or they just divide up the players. Unless that was on purpose? Other then those two little things I think it's great!
EDIT: Actually I made two other slight changes to the map: I made one of the mid-way castles a little bigger to match the other two, and moved one piece of cave wall to make the east-west teleporting work better.

I also added the wose and outcast teams with saurians on the nature's team. They're both allied with the dragon, but maybe they shouldn't be? At least the bandits probably shouldn't. They start in two of the existing castles, but every 9 turns (starting turn 10) they reappear with 60 extra gold in a new, randomly created castle. The generated castles disappear after the next 9 turns pass. Team leaders are Elder Wose and Trapper, but i could change (or randomize) them easily.

Midnight_Carnival wrote:Players who stockpile piercing units to fight the Drakes would suddenly find themselves at a major disadvantage.
Hm, this sounds pretty good, but I don't like that it disadvantages first time players. The first play through will already be pretty rough, considering all the weird game-play elements.

Also, I'd rather avoid custom units so people can join a game without installing the add-on.

As for the players' teams (disallowing flyers, swimmers, etc): The reason I suggested this was because I was imagining using chasm/deep water as obstacles, but since Midnight_Carnival isn't really using them that way (and no one else is making a map :lol: ) having custom eras or recruit lists is probably a pointless complication.

EDIT: Here's another link to the server for convenience: github
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby The_Gnat » March 11th, 2017, 6:02 am

Yes I agree both custom units and factions are probably not necessary at this time.

As for the skeletons we could instead of allowing the dragon to recruit them make them appear every night and dissappear at dawn. (Or after some turn number allow the dragon to recruit them. Which do you think is better)

In order not to disadvantaged first time players we could give a warning message about ths skeletons in the objectives!

Also I really like the map it should be the medium size map (and samonella - if you create any code it should be easily modifiable to work with large and small maps also!)

The only thing I would prefer if the map did not have five preset castles. What I envisioned would be six random spots on which the ai leaders could appear. At the start they (and a castle) randomly appear. Each time you kill them they spawn at one of the remaining random spots (with a new castle)

Of course it is also perfectly fine if they spawn randomly but the castles are preset (as long as there is some randomness)
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Re: Massive Online Multiplayer Senarios

Postby Samonella » March 11th, 2017, 6:16 am

The_Gnat wrote:Yes I agree both custom units and factions are probably not necessary at this time.

As for the skeletons we could instead of allowing the dragon to recruit them make them appear every night and dissappear at dawn. (Or after some turn number allow the dragon to recruit them. Which do you think is better)
Or maybe he starts recruiting them when you first attack one of the guards standing at the cave entrances (who don't exist yet but almost certainly will)?

The_Gnat wrote:In order not to disadvantaged first time players we could give a warning message about ths skeletons in the objectives!
Yeah that could work, especially if there were hints in the dialogue too. :)

The_Gnat wrote:Also I really like the map it should be the medium size map (and samonella - if you create any code it should be easily modifiable to work with large and small maps also!)
Yep, I've been keeping that in mind. All of it so far is either non-map-specific or will be very easy to make so.

The_Gnat wrote:The only thing I would prefer if the map did not have five preset castles. What I envisioned would be six random spots on which the ai leaders could appear. At the start they (and a castle) randomly appear. Each time you kill them they spawn at one of the remaining random spots (with a new castle)

Of course it is also perfectly fine if they spawn randomly but the castles are preset (as long as there is some randomness)
I'm not sure what you mean. Their only preset castles are the ones they start at on the very first turn, after that they could randomly appear anywhere outside the cave, new (temporary) castle and all. I didn't want to make them random on the very first turn because it wouldn't do if they both started the game too close to one player. The castles that are scattered around the map are for human players, not the woses/outcasts.
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