Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

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Dugi
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Dugi »

The post contains a lot of criticism against that video. I had a feeling that its author was trying to bash the crap out of everything he could.

I was quite sure that the narrator exaggerated a lot of (mostly historical) facts even when watching it, to make him seem more grandiose, that page only confirmed my suspicions. Many of these facts aren't really important, though.

Many claims in that article are not easily verifiable, especially those regarding his precision. Many shots indeed could be repeated until he succeeds, but the fact that it's possible does not make it necessarily true. Modern archers are quite precise when hitting targets far away, hitting smaller targets at far closer range should not be impossible with a similar precision. Whether he could hit that flying arrow with a high probability or not, I don't know. Most guys who make cool stunts don't enhance them when shooting a video. According to wikipedia, shooting quickly without aiming can be quite precise given enough practice (hand-eye coordination like when throwing objects needs time to practice).

The writer also seemed to be overly hyperbolic when describing the fact that modern archers are far more precise. That video never made any claims that the Dutch could hit targets as far as modern archers can hit when shooting with that crazy speed (the video indeed seems to insist that long range shooting sucks). What was the main point of that guy's skill and the whole video was fast shooting at relatively short distance but quickly and against moving targets. He would be quite obviously able to run away from a melee warrior and shoot arrows at him while running to defeat him before he gets into the melee range.

The point I took from this video is that archers are not completely useless in closer range as I thought before. Even while running, they can hit nearby targets (those who made them run) with a pretty good speed, so they don't need to switch to a melee weapon if an enemy charges at them. If the point is just to shoot a lot of arrows (shooting at enemies behind a wall during a siege), they can shoot far faster than I thought. The author of the article did not doubt this part.

And when it comes to wesnoth archers, they are shooting at pretty close range, don't they?
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Crow_T
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Crow_T »

People on the internet put their angry hat on and rant. But from the blog post:
We’re told “modern archers use only one hand, but in the past, some archers allegedly used both hands to give the arrow more power.” This is utter nonsense, unless you’re talking about one-armed archers like Jeff Fabry. Any competent archery instructor will tell you that an archer’s power does not come from the arm, but from the back muscles, and both sides are used at the same time
He misses the point completely- Lars uses his bow holding hand to snap forward, adding more force to it. Lars also does some pretty long distance stuff as well, contrary to the big rant there.

A less speculative read: http://www.snopes.com/info/news/larsandersen.asp

Either way, IMO it was a fun video to watch (3 times in a row :geek: )
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Midnight_Carnival
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

I'm assuming that people posting things here have actually fired a bow (without pulleys and lazer sights!) or they are referencing those who have.

I remember when my brother would carve "longbows" out of hickory and we'd go and shoot home-made arrows for fun, some of them had quite a kick and could penertrate a steel drum, others broke, later his bow making improved.

What hurt after firing a bow all day?
EVERYTHING!
Arms, legs, back. Aparently people can tell which of the English skeletons they unearthed were archers becasue of the over sized tendons in their arms from drawing obscenely powerful longbows (more powerful than most crossbows of the day).
Know what hurt the most? my left forearm, that was becasue my brother made a leather bracer thing, but only one, and he'd get all sweaty and the leather thingy was slimy - didn't wear it and ened up being cut to hell by the bowstring, not to mention burises which took weeks to heal.

I'd invite people to leave discussions on "the proper way to..." for after you've tried it. Firing arrows doesn't sound like hard work, but it IS. You'll very soon throw away the "should do" mentality and go with what works. Add to that the factor of combat in which your life is in real danger and you'll find that archers did what worked or died trying to :augh:
If some did things differently it was probalby becasue of factors such as a different type of bow, different conditions on the battlefield, etc...
Archery is pratical, if you want Wesnoth archers to seem 'real' make them seem pratcical.
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Implementor37
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Implementor37 »

Wesnoth Archers don't need to use proper form. Wesnoth archers could: 1)Be too small to actually tell what form they are using. 2)Elves have different theories on how to use a bow. (And why shouldn't they?) Skeletons have magical-senses so they don't need to worry about how they shoot. 3) Wesnoth archers taught themselves how to do things and fight as archers simply because they prefer it. Because they taught themselves, they prefer looking good while they shoot to changing their form. As far as they are concerned, if it makes the arrow go in the direction they want, it is good enough.

Also, Another thing everyone seems to be ignoring is the fact that modern arrows are actually straight. Medieval arrows were made of wood, and as a result never perfectly straight. Thus no arrow flew perfectly straight, and no two flew alike. Archers simply got good at launching arrows in the general direction--there was only so much they could do. Modern arrows are made with molded carbon fiber to be perfectly straight. This improves accuracy a ton today.

Is it really worth it to re-do all the unit sprites in favor of "historical accuracy"? No. Wesnoth is a light-hearted fantasy/strategy game. The point is more "watch me beat the other guy" then "look at how accurate everything is." Drakes/Saurians/Undead/Elves/Dwarves are all not "historically accurate"--and nobody complains about that. Irdya could have developed different ideas on just about anything. Just because people did something different in real-life doesn't necessarily mean Wesnoth needs to reflect that.

(Before you ask, yes I have shot archery. I spent a summer RSO-ing and providing basic instruction on an archery range)
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Midnight_Carnival
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

:lol: 'course you did, go get 'em :lol:

Actually, while we're on arcery rants, at the risk of going off-topic on the off-topic and potentially getting into trouble for it again, one thing which really bugs me.

"guns are 100% better than bows, you can kill someone with 1 shot with a gun and you have to shoot like a million arrows into them before you even slow them down"

Guns replaced bows because they required a lot less training before you could become proficient in their use, unless I'm very much mistaken. Get shot with a .22 pistol in the head at close range, you're just as dead as if you get shot with a desert eagle .50 and you're just as dead if you have a bulet in your heart as if you have an arrow stuck through it. Oh yeah, I've heard all the stories "duuuude, arows actually blocked the hole they made in people so people mainly bled to death after they tried to pull them out", etc... 1) dead is still dead. 2) if that were true I doubt arrows would have been so popular for so long, I mean firing an arrow at someone knowing that they'll only die 3 days later of infection borders on a suicide attack. In early warfare, slings had longer range than bows and were actually considered more accurate (?!!! -yes, I've tried to use one and could sometimes get the vague direction in which I launched the stone right) but better types of bows were developed. Not sure on this, but I think it had something to do with good bowmen not needing to train for as long as good slingers. Bows are still popular amongst hunters - and if this was becasue they made less noise I think silencers would cover that. So what, an arrow can kill a wild boar, a kudu, a tapir or a bison, but it apparently can't kill a man?

Get cut with a bronze sword and you are still as dead as if you're cut with a dimond-edged nano carbon blade. Get shot with an arrow in the right place and you're still as dead as if you're shot with a bullet. Guns are for lazy people, real men hunt with rocks :mrgreen:
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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puranglista123
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by puranglista123 »

Off thread: We should make a cameo of a elvish sharpshooter named Legolas!
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Ravana
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Ravana »

The Legolas name is quite unlikely to be available. There is section about using copyrighted content in game.
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by puranglista123 »

Ehh, should have thought a bit, playing BfW till 5 am takes its toll.
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Midnight_Carnival
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

Legolaux?
Lesolags
Losolegs?
:lol:
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by puranglista123 »

Lugumas? :D
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Dugi
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Dugi »

Legoland!
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by puranglista123 »

Dugi please, we don't need a Lego mod for Wesnoth. It would make it feel... not Wesnoth anymore (Lego Battle for Wesnoth, now with a bundle! Pay for several games for the price of one! Games include (with Lego Battle for Wesnoth): Lego Lord of the Rings,Lego Batman, Lego Pirates of the Carribean and more! GET YOUR OWN GAMES FOR ONLY $3.99/€3.99/£3.99) Yeah... That kinda feel.
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Mabuse »

Just for the books:

its not the chain-mail armor that stopped the arrow (in fact you can expect that the arrow goes through the chain-mail, but with a more or less significant power-loss), the PADDED armor beneath it, consisting of several layers (like the bullet-proof or stabbing-proof vests of nowadays) was the armor that stopped the arrow.

just putting on a chain-mail with no padded armor beneath it is a miserably fail.

also, warriors used SHIELDS for a reason.
to stop a well armored warrior with a shield running in your direction with tiny arrows from a tiny bow was quite doomed to fail.
(for that reason also the guys that fight with two swords is a miserable fail (often seen in fantasy art), cause these guys cant even defend against someone who just throws stones at it.

secondly, the pole-arm formations of the "landsknechts" that effectively stopped the age-of-knight (no, it wasn't the longbow), where also able to defend themselves against arrows, just by holding a lot of long polearms into the air (and they had good padded armor and plate armor).


in the past, it was used what WORKED in wars, if (tiny) bows firing at high rates on short distances were the winner, everyone would have used that.


the middle-east saracens felt quite helpless aginst the crusading medieval knight of europe, because their chain-mail+paddedarmor could resist their bows they fired from their mounted archers.

http://www.historynet.com/first-crusade ... ylaeum.htm
Noncombatant helplessness and vulnerability to the terrific archer fire and slashing Turkish swords motivated Bohemond to utilize a defensive posture. Sending messengers out to find and warn the other Crusader army of his situation, the Norman leader sought to preserve his army in the face of the unrelenting Turkish assault. Minutes turned to hours as more than 2,000 men reportedly fell victim to horse archers’ arrows. Most of the casualties were unarmored foot soldiers and pilgrims. Bohemond’s army began to retreat toward the banks of the river.

The Turks found the Western European knight much tougher to kill than the less-armored foot soldier. The knights (who would later be called ‘iron people’ by the Saracens) would take numerous missile hits and still fight on.


against non-warriors with no armor nor shields, rapid firing bowmen is surely quite effective or hunting animals
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by Midnight_Carnival »

Mabuse wrote:Just for the books:

secondly, the pole-arm formations of the "landsknechts" that effectively stopped the age-of-knight (no, it wasn't the longbow), where also able to defend themselves against arrows, just by holding a lot of long polearms into the air (and they had good padded armor and plate armor).
Nobody gives me bonus points for not dragging the infamous historical european martial arts troll "could plate armor be penetrated by arrows?" into the mix :cry:

On the "landsknechts" German mercenaries even though the modern state of Germany did not exist back then. They were known for their stylish "slash and puff" clothing and their wild behavior. Apart from that they used a variety of weapons including short swords and two handed swords but for the most part they were known for using pikes and early firearms. Now I'm not one to get too caried away on minor technical points, but of the two, pikes had been around for ages, even before the medieaval times and I'm not sure about them stopping arrows either - outside of martial arts movies - suggest firearms were more effective at discouraging armored knights and enemy archers perhaps?

Secondly, I've met several people who made their own chainmail, even if it was out of modern materials (in once case split ring washers) a friend of mine covered his leg with home made chainmail and was stabbed with a kinfe - he wore nothing underneath it - he was not even bruised despite the force of the attack. I don't know how that kinfe attack holds up against the force of an arrow (again, avoiding the longbows vs plate armor flamewar) but I can tell you that if chainmail offered no protection they would simply not have used it since it takes a long time to make and is quite heavy.
That said, I've heard of how Russian coats protected soldiers quite well from English sabres (for those of you who don't know, although they did not gain the same cult following as the Japanese katana, English sabres were fairly respectable blades and not known for their inability to cut) when protecting themselves from blades, many fighters would use a very thick jacket stuffed with horse hair and sometimes a few metal plates. Did it work against arrows?
I don't know, I'm not prepared to put a homemade one on and have someone fire arrows at me, but if it's that or what I'm presently wearing, I'd take my chances with that thank you.

Armor was very, very expensive, in modern terms a suit of full plate armor cost around today's equivelent of a sports car. Arrows were lethal, getting an arrow through the heart is as good as getting a bullet through the heart, it still kills. People protected themselves with whatever they had and it worked or it didn't depending on how well it was made, now good the archers and how lucky they were.
I maintain that firearms replaced bows becasue they required less training to be used as effectively, not because they were more accurate, did more damage or "didn't block up the holes they made, so stopping people from bleeding to death" :doh:
From what I've read there would be many archers or gunners firing, get enough arrows or bullets hitting you and regardless of what you're wearing, even robert downy jnr in his iron man suit would eventually die. The difference between firearms and bows was the ammount of time it took to be trained to use them effectively in my opinion. Let us also not forget that horses weren't as everything proof as men in armor. :hmm:

Anyway, look things up on wikipedia, go and pick a fight with people on historical european martial arts forums, etc...
enjoy
...apparenly we can't go with it or something.
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Re: Wesnoth archers need an upgrade

Post by puranglista123 »

I agree with the guy above, and for the longbows vs plate armour:

To even kill someone with a longbow you have to be in tip top shape, train a LOT , and be quite strong. So if your kinetic force is strong enough you will penetrate that substance. And about that you could survive if you got shot by a arrow, maybe only if it didn't have a metal tip that would penetrate into vital organs. IF it was without a tip (VERY UNLIKELY) you would still get shot, but because of the metal tip that pierces the skin unlikely you would have bled out to death, instead the arrow tip would jam into the skin and interrupt the blood oozing out in big quantities. Still, a arrow without a metal point can't really penetrate through metal. Now for plate armor: You didn't specify the type of plate armour used. It could be a coat of plates covered in chainmail or it could be gothic plate armor. So the protection amount depends on the type.
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