What does 9/11 mean to you?

[Pentarctagon]

I never asked people to feel bad for me, bit were you in NYC that day? Did you witness it?

You may not be asking people to feel bad for you, but based on your choice of words you definitely seem to be implying it.

I ask that you feel bad for the innocents that lost their lives.

Innocent people die every day, the only reason that these particular innocents are even remembered is because of the event that was the cause of their deaths. I felt sorry for them and their families 10 years ago. Making a big fuss about it 10 years later, while I understand why, is a complete waste of time and energy.

[Blarumyrran]

Alright. This is getting out of hand. Let me start by sayong I DID NOT mean to say we were fighting Iraq. At least not for 9/11. That id ENTIRLEY different.

We need to know what we're fighting for. (Gambit: Fighting who? Where?) ...Terrorism? Al-Queda? Iraq and Afghanistan? The War on Terror?

And today again is a day where Great_Mage_Atari contradicts himself. Let me educate you about yourself. Your posts on this forum so far have been consistently among the least intelligent and most annoyingly full of undeserved sense of accomplishment. If you are incapable of intelligent, consistent argumentation, then don't act with an overbearing martyrism and cockiness.

Let me also say that although we all have our opinions, there is no need for any of us to fight over who is right ad wrong. That's not what this is about. There should be no fighting today. Or any day.

There should be no fighting about the correctness of ideas on any day (where fighting means reasoned, analytical discussion such as that of Sgt. Groovy and Velensk)? Here you are saying that there should be no discussion of different ideas (as any meaningfully "different" ideas of a similar topic are in conflict with each other). Again this is nonsensical, strongly suggesting that you are an inconsistent person incapable of any analytical intelligent thought or self-expression. That you say it only now that you have been explained that your arguments are hollow, only worsens how you will be seen.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

Yes, though Gambit did ask who we were fighting. We were fighting Iraq. We were also mislead by some prominent political officials that they were the source of 9/11. Which, as we now know, is untrue. As for my posts being unintelligent and misguided, that's opiniative, seeing as how most of the things I mention involve people who seem to want to contradict it for undefined purposes. I find it harsh that people have to make themselves look more intelligent at the expense of another person, going so far as to post their opinions of others on legit threads, making an [butt] out of themselves. And although people die every day, never has it been in this matter on America's own turf.
Sigh. I give up trying to explain these things to people who are so narrow minded to where they have to judge the paint job on the wall. It would seem that most of these people on this thread don't give a rat's arse about what happened on 9/11, just filling this thread with slander and bad feelings. I'm not going to fight with you, as I did say and imply what 9/11 meant to me. People just have to be jerk-offs about it and twist peoples' words.
God bless the victims of 9/11. I hope this never happens again.

[Velensk]

Not to snipe at you further but to explain why people want to 'contradict it for undefined purposes': You give off views that they percieve as being either ignorant, ill-thought out, or simply misinformed and then you tell them things like that 'it is for their education'. This would be grating enough but at that point you don't even care to debate it properly.

From the ego perspective it is much the equivilent of insulting someones fencing ability and then not even satisfying them by answering their responce challange.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

Edit: forget this

[Gambit]

You'd rather delete your posts than explain them. It sounds like you either don't believe in what you have said, or you don't have any reasoning holding up your beliefs.

When I find that I am unable to defend an idea of mine, I begin to re-evaluate it. Logically, if I still cannot defend it, it is wrong.

This is what discussions are. You put forth your opinions, I put forth mine, and Billy Bob puts forth his. We all explain them to each other.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

I would try to re-evaluate, though it is always wrecked by another, therefore not making any sense anyhow.

[Gambit]

Well if it doesn't make any sense, then you should stop believing it.

[Great_Mage_Atari]

It doesn't make sense to people because they have one thought in their minds and that is to be right. I don't try to be right. I try to be factual. I don't like to fight. I don't like to be in the fray. It seems that people here have egos, as I have mine. We just don't like to admit it. I am done with this thread, whose just nature has been wrecked.

Atari out

[Gambit]

But you never told me how we win the war on terror and how our past and present actions contribute to that cause.

[Iris]

I’ll always remember 9/11 as a handy mnemonic for the date of birth of my three kittens; two of them died long ago, the third is about to become a happy 10 years old cat.

I am done with this thread, whose just nature has been wrecked.

The very nature of politics and religion, or any other subjects that converge into those in some significant manner, means that any discussion about them in an Internet forum populated by people from vastly different origins like this international users forum is doomed to not end very well if there’s one or more people with a “your argument is invalid, my politic party/religion/ideology/theory is better than yours!” attitude. You seem unable to tolerate differing views on these matters, not just in this topic, but in the communism one as well.

Well, what can I say, this is the Internet after all! Though maybe I should go back to locking these on sight instead of slacking around so you don’t have to try to cope with other people’s posts!

[Great_Mage_Atari]

@shadowmaster: I'd you to just tell me so I can change it, not have to lock just threads. If you don't mind my opinion on it. I frankly see nothing wrong with counteracting an opinion with an opinion of one's self, as long as it is justified as being on-topic. Just saying.

@gambit: Alright. Because you asked:
How to win the war on terror: We can't. We just can't. We can win this battle, but we will always continue to fight the war on terror, since terror always looms. There are and always will be the wicked, the people who, in their minds, have just causes, ideas that lead them to killing and destroying thousands upon millions of lives. Each and every day.
Past and present actions: In the past, America wasn't really a part of the war on terror. 9/11 just sparked the fire that eventually lead to the involvement of our nation in the fight against it. It is not to say that we weren't aware of terrorism, as we had lead multiple investigations into it, but people thought the idea of attacking the most powerful country in the world was, in lack of better words, crazy. We had gotten so used to the idea that we were unstoppable that we were ignorant to the happenings outside our little world. When 9/11 happened, Americans opened their eyes and said "Wow, this is the real deal. It can happen to us." We are now, as best we can, taking more precautionary measures to prevent another happening such as 9/11 from ever happening again (i.e. More airport security and such). Though it can never be won (in basic theory), the war on terror is an everlasting war that we can only hope to minimize, or at least in our own country. Battles will be fought, men and women will lose their lives protecting the world from wrong-doers, and people will rejoice in victories. But, sadly, winning this war is not meant to be so. We celebrate 9/11 in hope, not only because of the men and women of the event, but also because of ourselves, because we need to have something to hope for in terms of a better future for all of mankind. Without hope, without faith, we would still be a crumbled nation, a distraught nation, a distraught world.
But without discussions like these, messages will not get through, people will not be heard, voices will not protest.

And this, my friends, is why I celebrate 9/11.

(To all of you that criticized me, I actually thank you. Not because you showed me the light, but you opened my mind to new ways of thinking, new ways to better myself and my understanding. I am not mad at any of you, as I do get heated in these debates. I have had troubled times lately, and I am a little on edge (though this is no excuse for my rude behavior these last few days and/or weeks. I know forgiveness is not in the near future, but I will try for some sort of redemption. Thank you.)

[Velensk]

But you never told me how we win the war on terror and how our past and present actions contribute to that cause.

Well as to that I've had a few thoughts mostly on the latter issue.

I believe the primary way to decrease the recruitment pool for terrorist organizations would be the education of the the people currently in it as well as attempts to remove causes of discontent. If my sources were correct, Iraq was a major recruiting ground for such people and at the time we went in had been suffering from the previous dictatorship. Under those conditions the United States did not have a whole lot of power to influence the policies that would shape the nation directly especially as it was not very much in Sudan Hussein's interest to keep his people overly educated nor did he have a ton of money to do so even if he wanted to. Aside from that he has a record for attrocities/hostility (which admitedly might be partially the United States fault). Net result, Iraq is invaded, Hussain is taken out of power almost instantly. The United States spends the next few years dealing with all the Civil Unrest Hussain had been surpressing and puts lots of lots of money to rebuild and attempt to make it a stable democracy which in theory would be less likely to generate terrorists. It's too early to really judge if this was succesful but I can see this as being potentially effective in the long run if not overly efficent.

In the meanwhile Afganistan was ruled by what essentially amounted to drug/war-lords. These people were probably (I am a bit fuzzy on the facts of this point) not a major threat to the U.S. directly but the things they were doing were still things that bear worth distrupting and also things that I believe would generate more terrorist sentiments. At the moment the United States is having a hard time eliminating the former rulers entirely but the presense of their forces in the area does force the Talibam to move carefully, stay mostly hidden, take pot shots with snipers, traps, and other such ploys. These cost the US a few lives but last I checked they still lose far more to accidents on our own soil. If they can get around to the point where they do improve the quality of living and shake the hold of the drugs on the people then we might see progress there as well.

Of course, neither of these have been or will be smooth roads and some bad decisions along the way have probably set each back some but I see the potential for results.

[Gambit]

Okay my other question was:

If like twenty American citizens went totally crazy on their own and killed 2.5 thousand New Zealanders, is it okay for New Zealand's military to occupy us for a decade, kill innocent American civilians, kidnap and torture some, and replace our established police force with mercenaries that operate above both American and New Zealand law (i.e. they can do whatever they want with no consequences in either country)?

Would you be perfectly okay with that, or would you grow to dislike New Zealanders?

Do you understand why such actions would do nothing but create hatred and even more terrorism against New Zealand?

[Great_Mage_Atari]

Well no. Not at all. That was my biggest issue with the War. I don't believe we should have barged into a country without the leaders consent and start setting up camps and barricades all over the place. The thing is, we have been so mislead to believe that all Muslims and all Middle Easterners and all of a certain type of individual are out to get us. It's a terrible thing in society to not be accepted because of something somebody of your race or your religion did against somebody else. I don't hold anything against Afghanistan or it's citizens, but I do hold the leaders accountable for harboring terrorists (please note my use of wording). As for an answer to Gambit's question:

Would you be perfectly okay with that, or would you grow to dislike [whoever]?

Well, we can always take it to the Revolutionary War (just for an example). Do I hate England now? No. Did they do some things to us that weren't very nice? Yes. But I learn to forgive.
If we invade some country for something that some terrorist group did (or other group), it's not right because it wasn't the government that participated. We just get angry and too worked up over things that people did to us, leading us to make false accusations toward innocent people. We need to cool it and take a second to look at the facts instead of riding our Shermans into some country and blowing the crap out of it.