Games discussion

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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dugi » May 27th, 2013, 5:19 pm

I used to play Neverwinter Nights. I really loved the game's character system, like you. Not sure what do you mean with heart of the game, if you mean the dungeons and enemies, it was well playable if you had a proper character (and making one required experience). The simplest strategy was to have a sorcerer with a warrior henchman, he tanked, you zapped.
Its second expansion pack was pretty good, you started at level 15, with the possibility to make all choices yourself, and this let me learn to build characters properly.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Blarumyrran » May 27th, 2013, 6:10 pm

Dugi wrote:Not sure what do you mean with heart of the game, if you mean the dungeons and enemies

yes
Dugi wrote:have a sorcerer with a warrior henchman, he tanked, you zapped.

and that is mindnumbingly dull; as far as i've played it, the pattern in which you will use spells and special abilities is very regular; and those aside, the game is just clicking on enemies repeatedly in a priority that is mostly obvious and doesn't feel like a deep decision, and running away and coming back again; even that could be done in a fun way if it had a cool simulationy edge to it like dwarf fortress but it doesn't
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Rigor » May 27th, 2013, 6:27 pm

i found many games cool but the coolest ones were never dull. what is your idea of a cool game? i played dw fort but found it too complex for such a relaxing evening. although i like civ4 and crusader kings 2, also complex games. guess it depends on the mood.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dugi » May 27th, 2013, 6:49 pm

Blarumyrran wrote:and that is mindnumbingly dull; as far as i've played it, the pattern in which you will use spells and special abilities is very regular; and those aside, the game is just clicking on enemies repeatedly in a priority that is mostly obvious and doesn't feel like a deep decision, and running away and coming back again;
Not so much. You can't cast many spells before having to rest, and you have to choose which ones to use, and that isn't so easy. But I can tell that this is no action game, it's all about strategy and character building. I think that it should be more action too, like Skyrim for example (Skyrim's character system isn't very interesting, though, I made the perfect build with my first character and feel no urge to replay).

Rigor wrote:what is your idea of a cool game?

I know it was not directed at me, but I want to reply anyway. I personally think that a perfect game should have a combat style like Beat 'em ups (use some combination of buttons to perform various attacks), graphics like Skyrim with all its graphical mods (sometimes you can't tell its screenshot from a photo), character system like Neverwinter Nights or Neverwinter Nights 2 (NWN2 had the character system a bit more elaborate), item system like Diablo II (never seen a game with so good relation between items and builds, and although Path of Exile was pretty good, it was basically imitation Diablo II) and story like my campaign Legend of the Invincibles (group of subplots, each of them was a part of the main story, that let me make an insanely long story that never received a negative review, except for some bad dialogues creating minor plot holes; some narcissism is here I know). Now I should find a way to become immortal to survive until the time when somebody makes a game like that.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Rigor » May 27th, 2013, 7:00 pm

Skyrim...Neverwinter Nights...Diablo II...Path of Exile...Legend of the Invincibles. what? whats this game ive never heard of? must be some kind of su-per scandalously tabooized indieproduction. Must goo... ...
Spoiler:

ah ok. its YOUR game, alright :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dugi » May 27th, 2013, 7:09 pm

I wrote before it 'my campaign' to explain that I didn't mean anything much known. And I used it because I could not imagine any other example for something with a longer story (I was thinking about Morrowind for some time, but its problem was that most of its main quests was to ask somebody for some knowledge, some documents, or for something else, and go somewhere to retrieve an item for him, though the background was good).
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dunno » May 27th, 2013, 7:35 pm

Dugi, do you honestly say you don't know games with a long and complex plot? You have so much to play then :D
Deus Ex has the best story ever made, imo. Others great stories are Portal, Half Life, The Last Express, Deadrising, Mafia II, The Darkness, Thief and I could go on. But yeah, if I had to pick one best story, it'd be Deus Ex.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dugi » May 27th, 2013, 10:42 pm

I don't play FPS games. Zombie horrors neither. I can't tell if the games you mentioned have good plots or not, long and complex plot doesn't mean it is a good plot if it is repetitive (like Morrowind as I mentioned in my last post). I am mostly an RPG gamer, so I can tell only about RPGs (and from them I can say that if a game's plot isn't repetitive, it is short usually, there are exceptions for sure, but I can't think of neither). RPGs have usually a much greater replayability.
But judging from what I've read on wikipedia, Deus Ex might be worth playing.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dunno » May 28th, 2013, 9:42 am

Dugi wrote:I don't play FPS games. Zombie horrors neither.

You don't know what you're missing then :wink:
Deus Ex is a role playing fps or something like that. You can evolve your character in many various ways which provide you with many different gamestyles, which means that if you don't like FPSs, you can always stalk around and avoid being seen. In fact, Deus Ex is known to be a one of the few games that can be completed without killing a single person (even the bosses). You should definitely try it (if you feel like buying it's on gog.com).
Imo, only RPGs have this problem of repetitive plot. FPSs usually have either no plot at all (Quake, Doom etc), or complex and immersive storyline (the ones above).
One more thing, Portal, The Last Express and Thief aren't FPSs :P
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dugi » May 28th, 2013, 10:45 am

I mean I have played some FPS games, and don't feel a need to play them any more. You just shoot some baddies, talk to somebody, shoot more baddies, some cutscene appears, you come to shoot some baddies again, and basically it is just a sequence of cutscenes and shooting baddies, that is always the similar, hiding behind some objects or moving quickly and aiming at enemies, maybe saving some ammo. You're fighting through a linear storyline full of prescripted events to make it look more like a film, where everything can be done only one way, and the only thinking it requires is looking for spots to hide or take cover, that means very little thinking and no creativity at all. The storylines are similar to the storylines of the countless Hollywood action films, where you know what will happen most of the time.
I mean that I don't have problems with shooting itself, but with its uniformity. $20 for 20 hours of gameplay is way too much.

Basically the only FPS game I like is Oni, an older, extremely difficult FPS combined with fighting games, where you never had enough ammo and had to steal enemy weapons all the time, but that wasn't enough frequently, and had to brawl (the usual fighting with combos, blocking, dodging) and dodge bullets a lot (this needed a lot of strategical planning, because brawling more than one enemy at once was almost impossible). Another speciality was that weapons were really varied, some could easily kill with a very few shots or had an area of effect, but ate the valuable ammo like crazy, others were impractical, but could let you kill a lot of enemies without consuming too much ammo (a good example of this was Screaming Cannon, a weapon whose cheap missiles were deadly and chasing enemies, but they were painfully slow that it killed in fact only enemies you knocked unconscious or cornered, could shoot once per 10 seconds and the missiles harmed you too if you weren't careful). Its sci-fi oriented plot was almost totally linear, but consisted of some nice twists.

I said that I might get Deus Ex, because it seems to have also some RPG features and alternative techniques. I never said I have problems with games about shooting, I have a problem with the way FPS games are done.

Not all RPGs have repetitive plots, there were some with very good but short plots (Skyrim generally, Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer to name a few). Those with long plots were usually repetitive (Morrowind was a speciality, its main quest line consisted of first asking 10 people about something and obtaining something for them in some dungeon to get a reply, then follow your destiny knowing all you needed, but then having to persuade 7 groups of people to give you some title, always requiring some talking and a fight, then having to attack 6 enemy citadels where ash vampires dwelt and finally defeating the boss).
But in RPGs, the usual variability of combat styles, developing the character and sidequests are distracting from imperfect main storylines.

I know what Portal and Thief are, but they are totally linear as well, though they require more thinking. I was even thinking about trying Portal.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dunno » May 28th, 2013, 3:00 pm

Dugi wrote:I mean I have played some FPS games, and don't feel a need to play them any more. You just shoot some baddies, talk to somebody, shoot more baddies, some cutscene appears, you come to shoot some baddies again, and basically it is just a sequence of cutscenes and shooting baddies, that is always the similar, hiding behind some objects or moving quickly and aiming at enemies, maybe saving some ammo. You're fighting through a linear storyline full of prescripted events to make it look more like a film, where everything can be done only one way, and the only thinking it requires is looking for spots to hide or take cover, that means very little thinking and no creativity at all. The storylines are similar to the storylines of the countless Hollywood action films, where you know what will happen most of the time.

This here is a perfect description of all these crappy games like COD, Battlefield and Medal of Honor that killed the "hardcore" gaming. Every single one of them is a disaster and its no wonder that they scare away people like you from the glorious fps genre. FPSs used to require skill and creativity, believe me. Mostly those that didn't have health regeneration (the worst thing that happened in gaming) and had limited ammo like the ID classics (Quake 1-4 and Doom 1-3), all games on Build engine (Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior) and Valve's masterpiece, Half Life. Also, I believe Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory and Unreal Tournament are still the best multiplayer fps games out there and will never be beaten by this mindless garbage people play nowadays. </rant>


Not all RPGs have repetitive plots

I've never said that :)

I was even thinking about trying Portal.

Definitely do, especially the sequel!
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Dugi » May 28th, 2013, 3:52 pm

You can't just say that health regeneration kills gaming. Of course that it sucks in games like Call of Duty, where it reduces the need to preserve health only to the need to avoid standing in open areas or too close to enemies. But if it is very slow, it just removes the need to heal between fights, making it a bit more comfortable (speaking rather about RPGs, where usually you can sleep in safe places or visit towns to heal, and healing items are not scripted to be in balanced locations).

Removing a need for ammunition is dumb in FPS games too, preserving ammo is one of the important parts of FPS games. Without it, you can just shoot non-stop, even without aiming or knowing that an enemy is really there. It is fine in RPGs, where randomness is usually a good feature and long passages without ammo can be deadly, but not in FPS games without other limiting factors (like weapon overheating, as I have seen in one game that was a FPS with a load of RPG features).

I have played Quake 3, but I was not very enticed by it. Maybe because of the lack of story, but rather because of the lack of character strategy planning (that I like about RPGs, and dislike its lack everywhere else, that's why I added it to my campaign in wesnoth). I have also played DukeNukem3D (before discovering RPG games :lol2: ), but I got stuck somewhere at the beginning without knowing how to get further.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby Crow_T » May 29th, 2013, 1:33 am

You can't just say that health regeneration kills gaming. Of course that it sucks in games like Call of Duty, where it reduces the need to preserve health only to the need to avoid standing in open areas or too close to enemies. But if it is very slow, it just removes the need to heal between fights, making it a bit more comfortable (speaking rather about RPGs, where usually you can sleep in safe places or visit towns to heal, and healing items are not scripted to be in balanced locations).


Man, we used to play 4 player Goldeneye only in License to Kill mode (or -10 health)- now those were some intense 10 minute rounds ;) Especially with explosives :eng:

But yeah, depends on the genre- in a FPS health regen/armor are for sissies! I do like the balance of rpgs like FF3 where you can stock up on potions, elixers, etc.

As a side note I'm playing Limbo and it has an amazing feel to it, very desolate and harsh, but put so simply. I also poke at Cave Story, a cool basic side scroller.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby AI » May 30th, 2013, 10:10 pm

I've recently heard someone describe health regeneration as applying a high-pass filter to the gameplay experience: All long-term planning and such becomes irrelevant.
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Re: Games discussion

Postby bumbadadabum » June 21st, 2013, 7:04 am

I'm currently playing Savage 2. If anyone wants a good free game, I recommend you check it out.
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