Looking for donations

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West
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by West » August 20th, 2010, 6:31 pm

norbert: I see what you mean and I agree that it might be an important discussion to have. I think you're also missing my point, which is: even if it would be possible for me to get some sort of grant from the Wesnoth project, I don't think it would disqualify me from asking people to donate. The reason I posted this on this forum is that I know that a lot of people here are familiar with my music. And I posted it in off topic so it would not be taken as some sort of official plea from one of the developers.

I can't help but feel that you're trying to say "if you need money, you should try and get it from those running the project, not from the players/community" but it might be that I'm misunderstanding you.

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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by Captain_Wrathbow » August 20th, 2010, 6:39 pm

I got the impression that this had nothing to do with the wesnoth project, really. You're personally just asking for donations.
Is that right? Correct me if not. :)

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West
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by West » August 20th, 2010, 6:59 pm

Captain_Wrathbow wrote:I got the impression that this had nothing to do with the wesnoth project, really. You're personally just asking for donations.
Is that right? Correct me if not. :)
Head on the nail. :)

Edit: some donations have trickled in and I just wanted to say THANK YOU. I don't know if the people who donated have posted on this thread (as the names didn't ring a bell), but in any case I just want to say that this is very generous of you and highly appreciated.

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norbert
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by norbert » August 20th, 2010, 7:33 pm

West wrote:[...] even if it would be possible for me to get some sort of grant from the Wesnoth project, I don't think it would disqualify me from asking people to donate.
I tried to paint a picture where more than one person would like to receive donations, and the donations are (equally) distributed among those who requested for financial support. If such an arrangement - a central project - would be in place, it wouldn't be very logical or gentlemanlike for one of those participants to ask for additional donations individually.
West wrote:And I posted it in off topic so it would not be taken as some sort of official plea from one of the developers.
But you are one of the developers, and I don't think there is something as an "unofficial plea". If you mean 'not by the Wesnoth Project' then that's apparently correct; just by one developer. But that doesn't make the plea itself any less 'official'. You too are 'running the show', which means "get it from those running the project" doesn't make any sense to me. The purpose of those sections in the Credits is not to indicate how much effort the listed people put into their work. You're listed in the Credits and the forum's legend acknowledges you as a "Developer".
Captain_Wrathbow wrote:I got the impression that this had nothing to do with the wesnoth project, really.
Nothing? Just a random person asking for donations, in no way related to the Wesnoth Project. West is not related to it, his work is not related to it, his presence here is not related to it. Come on, that doesn't make any sense.

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boru
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by boru » August 20th, 2010, 7:41 pm

Paypal recently charged me 0.5 % to send money internationally. It might cost more in some cases but I really would be amazed if they ever charged over 10%.
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West
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by West » August 20th, 2010, 8:15 pm

norbert wrote:I tried to paint a picture where more than one person would like to receive donations, and the donations are (equally) distributed among those who requested for financial support. If such an arrangement - a central project - would be in place, it wouldn't be very logical or gentlemanlike for one of those participants to ask for additional donations individually.
Yes, I see what you're getting at. And no, to my knowledge there is no such arrangement, and maybe there needs to be one. I honestly don't know. But your thinking seems to be based on the assumption that all I've ever done is Wesnoth music and that I'm asking for money because I've made music for the game. I can only speak for myself but West != Wesnoth. I have posted news about other stuff I've done here over the years, some of it's been used for UMC stuff, and I think -- or at least I like to think -- that people on this forum know that a) I'm a musician who's worked (and WORKS) on different projects, and b) who releases all his music for free.

I AM NOT A NUMBER, I'M A FREE MAN! :)
norbert wrote:But you are one of the developers, and I don't think there is something as an "unofficial plea". If you mean 'not by the Wesnoth Project' then that's apparently correct; just by one developer. But that doesn't make the plea itself any less 'official'. You too are 'running the show', which means "get it from those running the project" doesn't make any sense to me. The purpose of those sections in the Credits is not to indicate how much effort the listed people put into their work. You're listed in the Credits and the forum's legend acknowledges you as a "Developer".
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean by this. Let me explain my take on the matter as plainly as I possibly can:

* I make music.

* Some of the music I make was used in Battle for Wesnoth.

* Because of that, people here know who I am and what I do.

* As people know who I am and what I do, I figured it was a good place to ask if someone wanted to donate.

From my perspective, it wasn't more complicated than that. No ulterior motives, just a matter of asking for help in a place where I know people and people know me.

Please don't take this the wrong way norbert, I just fail to see what the problem is.

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Re: Looking for donations

Post by pauxlo » August 20th, 2010, 8:41 pm

The money the "Wesnoth project" gets (mostly from advertisement on the homepage and iPhone/iPad sales), is (from what I understand, please correct me who knows more) spent only on this:
  • Server running (web server, MP server, addon-server)
  • art commissions like the saurian animations (or these Wesnoth Summer Art Scholarships last year)
There was some talk about paying some coders to do full time work, but AFAIK this has not yet come true.
(There is the "summer of code" where people get money for coding, but this is payed by Google, not by Wesnoth.)

Money is not simply given to individual developers (as I understand, they are not allowed to, as for taxes reasons the money has to be spend on making Wesnoth better).

So, the only way West could get some money out of this project would be if the project commissions some new music by him, for now.
I don't know whether "the project" wants this (and who would decide about this), neither whether West wants to do this, but I think it should be independent on him asking for individual donations.

Another (future) way would be to set up some fund For Poor Developers, to which we could donate independently of any sales/advertisement money (and without any taxes benefit) as a "thank you", and whose money would be given to those developers who say they need it.

Since all who would decide about this are on the developer mailing list, I think it would be a good idea to ask there.

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Captain_Wrathbow
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by Captain_Wrathbow » August 20th, 2010, 8:48 pm

norbert wrote:
Captain_Wrathbow wrote:I got the impression that this had nothing to do with the wesnoth project, really.
Nothing? Just a random person asking for donations, in no way related to the Wesnoth Project. West is not related to it, his work is not related to it, his presence here is not related to it. Come on, that doesn't make any sense.
Uhhh... why not?
Forget for a second that West has contributed anything to Wesnoth.
He makes music.
He distributes it or free.
He is looking for donations, just to help with personal needs such as purchasing equipment and maintenance.
He makes a thread in the off-topic forum, because this has nothing to do with the wesnoth project.

He is not asking for donations to the wesnoth project, he is asking for personal donations!


Sorry, but your position doesn't make sense.

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Re: Looking for donations

Post by shadowm » August 20th, 2010, 8:54 pm

Enough, people. We all know that this is not about the Wesnoth Project, so move on.
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lmelior
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by lmelior » August 20th, 2010, 9:13 pm

West, are you taking commissions? I have no work for you myself right now, but you are certainly at the top of my list if I ever get on the ball. I'm certain you'd find interested parties that have something more immediate.

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Re: Looking for donations

Post by Zarel » August 20th, 2010, 9:28 pm

boru wrote:Paypal recently charged me 0.5 % to send money internationally. It might cost more in some cases but I really would be amazed if they ever charged over 10%.
It's about micropayments.

Taking 10% off the top of a $5000 transaction would be ridiculous.

Taking 10% off the top of 5000 $1 transactions would be fairly low.

To say nothing about 500000 $0.01 transactions - most places would charge you $100,000 for the privilege.
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West
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Re: Looking for donations

Post by West » August 20th, 2010, 9:31 pm

lmelior wrote:West, are you taking commissions? I have no work for you myself right now, but you are certainly at the top of my list if I ever get on the ball. I'm certain you'd find interested parties that have something more immediate.
I'm definitely taking commissions. I haven't gone out of my way to make this clear, as I've never done any commercial musical work (not counting paid live gigs over the years) and I'm perpetually suffering from a bad case of I'm-not-good-enough-itis. But if anyone wants a soundtrack for a game or some other media, do give me a holler.

/me holds up a sign saying WILL COMPOSE FOR FOOD

:)

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Re: Looking for donations

Post by johndh » August 21st, 2010, 12:37 am

Just a thought: Maybe those who can't donate financially, can write a review on Jamendo, or share his Facebook link? Publicity isn't a substitute for money, but at least you'd be contributing something. :wink:
It's spelled "definitely", not "definately". "Defiantly" is a different word entirely.

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Re: Looking for donations

Post by Eleazar » August 21st, 2010, 2:18 am

One of the issues with Wesnoth trying to raise more money (via adds or whatnot) is that it then has to be dispersed. While that sounds like a good problem to have, the dispersal of funds can be a very contentious issue. At best it can be a lot of work to try manage a lot of money properly.

It's not like this stuff happens by magic. One of the senior developers (who might otherwise be developing) needs to handle the money.
I don't have all the answers, some sort of micropayment approach where appreciative users can contribute to individual developers directly may be the best way to do things. I've considered such an approach at more than one point. Some wesnoth work is definitely more visible than other work that's just as important, but this method requires minimal maintenance, and has little to fight over.

Not that i think Wesnoth itself shouldn't hand out money, but i don't think the central organization is the best way to solve all money related problems.

A) We do have as least some users who want to contribute.
B) We have at least some developers who would like to be contributed to.
C) The necessary costs of Wesnoth are currently being covered.

Perhaps the best thing would be to replace the former "donate" button with a link to a page that lists these developers and a link to donate to each?


Full Disclosure: I've received some money from Wesnoth, though most of my contributions have been unrecompensed.


As for the credits list, everyone (except for a few we've missed, or who didn't want to be credited) who has contributed anything to wesnoth is listed.

Wesnoth is pretty loose with SVN access (compared to other projects i've contributed to), with about 90 in that group, though many are not active. Technically these are all "developers" There are probably a few more people who don't want to use SVN who are considered developers. But most developers (like West) aren't active in contributing to decisions outside of their area of interest.


EDIT: for contributors who would like more exposure, we can add your email address or website to your line in the credits.
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