Add-ons client/server support for add-on ratings

[iceiceice]

Dugi:

It seems you ignored many of my real questions, although you pretended to respond point by point. Here are specific sentences I wrote that you don't address.

Also, this means that together these two factors are ten times more important than the average user rating, since you are dividing the user rating by two above. How did you decide that this would be a good idea?

This system seems to place outsize importance on having constant updates and redownloads from the users.

You should allow people to opt out of tracking like that with a preference as well.

The user is likely to assume wrongly that it reflects the average user rating.

Even in your own code, you refer to the average rating of the users as the user_rating, and the "aggregate rating" (or what I will call the "Dugi rating") as the general_rating. So your response to (3) is pretty disingenuous.

However, I am particularly bothered by your response to (4).

I think that it said somewhere in wesnoth that the game collects some data about gameplay and uploads it.

If that's the case it is certainly news to me. It is easy to check (< 5min) that there are no translatable strings in wesnoth's dictionary containing any of the substrings "upload", "collect", "server", "gameplay", "information", "track", "personal", "identity", "privacy" which say anything like what you wrote. I checked this in your own branch. Nor do I find any such strings in the source code which you forgot to mark translatable. The only privacy notification related to wesnoth seems to be the phpBB one built into the forums: http://forums.wesnoth.org/ucp.php?mode=privacy

I have to say, I find it very concerning that you could be confused on this point of fact after all this time working on this and thinking about it, and that even after I raised the issue you responded as blithely as you did. There are plenty of users who would be justifiably upset if we the wesnoth developers started secretly tracking their activity. In fact, I was already privately messaged yesterday by a user who had privacy questions after reading your post.

[doofus-01]

However, I am particularly bothered by your response to (4).
Dugi wrote:
I think that it said somewhere in wesnoth that the game collects some data about gameplay and uploads it.

If that's the case it is certainly news to me. It is easy to check (< 5min) that there are no translatable strings in wesnoth's dictionary containing any of the substrings "upload", "collect", "server", "gameplay", "information", "track", "personal", "identity", "privacy" which say anything like what you wrote. I checked this in your own branch. Nor do I find any such strings in the source code which you forgot to mark translatable. The only privacy notification related to wesnoth seems to be the phpBB one built into the forums: ucp.php?mode=privacy

I have to say, I find it very concerning that you could be confused on this point of fact after all this time working on this and thinking about it, and that even after I raised the issue you responded as blithely as you did. There are plenty of users who would be justifiably upset if we the wesnoth developers started secretly tracking their activity. In fact, I was already privately messaged yesterday by a user who had privacy questions after reading your post.

Hi,
I'm not defending or condemning anything here, but I think Dugi may be referring to the old (defunct) stats.wesnoth.org. There are better links than this, but my search skills aren't good enough to find them, apparently :
http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=287187#p287187

There was a "debate" somewhere on these forums about privacy etc. over stats.wesnoth.org.

EDIT: Better links:
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 10#p132810
https://github.com/wesnoth/website (I'm not trying to be insulting, website might be easy to overlook on this topic.)

[iceiceice]

doofus-01: Thanks for the links, it is interesting and looks relevant. But it appears to be completely different from Dugi's pull request, in terms of what exactly was done / what code was used -- Dugi wrote entirely new methods to log the time you spend playing, store these, and upload them. Besides, this stats.wesnoth.org thing was apparently opt-in with a checkbox and a tooltip, or a button on the title screen or something like this. The issue here is that Dugi's patch is not opt-in, and it does all of this tracking silently.

After a quick search, the website repo you link to doesn't seem to have such a privacy notification either. Do you specifically know of any place that we tell the users "the game collects some data about gameplay and uploads it" ?

[doofus-01]

Maybe the website didn't say much, you're right. However, there was a notice when you clicked on some little "paper envelope" icon on the title screen, in game. I don't remember what it said, but I think it explained what it was all about. I don't know where in the code it is, sorry. This was years ago, maybe one of the old-timer devs can remember better.

I did find the "debate" I was remembering though (and it seems probably relevant):
http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=330430#p330430

[Dugi]

Sorry, wasn't intentional to avoid them, I didn't consider them important or forgot about them.

Also, this means that together these two factors are ten times more important than the average user rating, since you are dividing the user rating by two above. How did you decide that this would be a good idea?

I am not diving it. The resulting score out of 10 is 0.5 * users rating + 0.25 * gameplay hours rating + 0.25 * downloads count rating. I think that you've misread the code, because I remember seeing it having the intended behaviour.

This system seems to place outsize importance on having constant updates and redownloads from the users.

Why? Redownloads due to updating don't bump the download count since a certain 1.11 version.

You should allow people to opt out of tracking like that with a preference as well.

I've told that I'll add this possibility. But it'll result in being at the tail of the list, behind anything rated, because this is to be used mostly with incomplete and/or abandoned add-ons that shouldn't be more likely to download than the rated ones in any case, because it can make a bad reputation to all add-ons.

The user is likely to assume wrongly that it reflects the average user rating.

I have replied to this that this value should give more information than average user rating, and should keep it balanced in a certain range. Do you want to add a tooltip telling this is not exactly the average users' rating?

Regarding privacy, I don't know why would somebody want to conceal what add-ons is he playing. The server already knows that he plays a video game, a TBS game, Battle for Wesnoth, and adding which add-on is he playing is just a petty addition. There are no psychotherapist, porn, mumbo-jumbo, fetishist or whatever-else-of-awkward add-ons, so nothing people can be ashamed of. If you insist, there might be a checkbox to turn the uploading off, but I don't understand the privacy panic in the times of late (especially when people upload all kinds of personal crap on facebook, twitter and instagram).

[iceiceice]

Sorry, wasn't intentional to avoid them, I didn't consider them important or forgot about them.

I see, well thanks for being candid about it at least. Going to drop the non-privacy issues -- it looks like you have been editing your post a bit esp. on that one so I will just focus on that.

Regarding privacy, I don't know why would somebody want to conceal what add-ons is he playing.

Well, I'm not going to sit here and try to explain it, but as you hopefully know, many countries in the last 10 or 20 years or so have adopted Data Privacy Laws. I'm not an expert in the slightest but as I understand one thing that these laws may do is restrict you from collecting activity reports about how someone is using your software if they are using it in a private context. They may also restrict you from uploading such data or giving it to someone else unless terms are met governing notifying the user, giving a stated purpose for the collection, and scheduling for eventual deletion. As I understand it may even be illegal in some countries to, say, automatically upload a crash report when your program crashes without asking the user for permission. (If any reader knows more about this stuff than me please chime in.)

But regardless of the laws of various countries it just seems like common sense that people should be notified and have a chance to opt out if they are uncomfortable.

Edit: The user who PM'd me gave me permission to post the PM here if his/her name is redacted.

Hello iceiceice !
I have read a lot about this add-on-rating on the forums (some discussions are from years back),
and perfectly understand the interest of the developers, the benefit for the players, and the advantage
of an easy to use rating-/review-system. I am in favor of this idea, and one has to respect the input
of user Dugi, his skills and the amount of work to create the necessary software. This is the reason
why I deem it improper to post this comment on the forums, not to mention that I´m somebody with
no "technical" knowledge in this field.

However, I must confess: the more details I get to know, the more, well … uncomfortable I feel about
this rating-structure. Then again, maybe I should have felt uneasy since the first time I took a survey
on the internet ...

So, as far as I can see: Every time I download an add-on, lots of data will be readout in the background:

the numbers and titles of campaigns I have installed, consequently my gusto in general;
the numbers of downloads for each campaign (btw, I just had to restore my system,
the installed campaigns were lost. I confess the double download of some add-ons!);
the games I have started, played, or abandoned, as SP or MP (as to the latter: who with);
the time spent on each campaign (and scenario?), consequently if I am a good player or an idiot;
probably if I use to play during day- or nighttime, the week or weekends, consequently
if I still have a life outside Wesnoth, or a family, or a job;
of course, my IP, my location, my native or favorite language and others I can speak.
Actually, to make the output even more meaningful, age and sex should be considered, too.
There might be some function, ratio, logarithm or whatever to extract this data by analyzing
the most used/favored unit type/gender, OSLT …

I´m kidding. But I guess, all this information not only serves to prevent cheating and abusing,
but also allows to rate the value/quality of a player´s review.
Do I feel too gloomy about the future? Any reason for a more rapid HeartBeat?
I mean, is this normal ? Is this really necessary?
I've a notion that I´ll feel monitored the moment I hit "connect to add-ons.wesnoth.org"-link,
even if it was only accidentally, or just to check the description of a campaign,
or to look at the newest catchy icons, or – havens no ! – to REMOVE an add-on,
and therefore feature on some blacklist ...

I could understand it better if BfW was a source of financial profits (marketing is everything!).
But it´s a free game, mainly for the use of children (yeah, and lots of adults).
Undoubtedly, the volunteers would like to see a more satisfactory valuation of their hard work,
feedback and acknowledgment on the forums are quite poor, IMO, most players don´t care at all
(just take a look at the input and interest of vanilla-users on this add-on-rating-subject … ).

But for now, I would vote in favor of a button/option:
"Do you bother to be checked out in order to enjoy a rating of all our add-ons
and the privilege to add your personal opinion/review ? – Yes / No"
A reassuring affirmation that matters are a long way from going as "big brother-like" as I imagine,
or that someone with the proper knowledge can get all this information anyway, whenever desired
would do, too.

PS Funny thing is: I often wished that the in-game-menu would show the hours it took
to beat a certain campaign (instead of a clock with the current time). This info seems to be available !
But, as Dugi wisely pointed out: Most users don't even know where they can find the preferences file.
Well, I searched for it … and failed, so far. Cheers

Edit: I read your post again. I want to point out that, having servers log all transactions is normal and entirely reasonable. In fact it's a bit crazy to provide a server to the public without logging everything that it does. So logging when people download add-ons, when they sign into the mp server etc., is pretty much normal.

But client-side logging of their off-line activity is a totally different matter.

[Dugi]

It's a known fact that NSA has a secret backdoor in Windows that lets them watch almost anything you do. So when an office that spies on anybody can collect all information, why shouldn't a game collect a little bit of infomation? Neither NSA, neither the server of Battle for Wesnoth cares specifically about you, the stored information will exist, but no human will ever read it, so why should anybody care? You upload info about your offline activity only when connecting to the add-ons' server anyway.

I'll add that button to disable uploading the gameplay times, but it will be enabled by default.

That PM looks somewhat Orwell-1984-panicked to me. If you look at the evolution of our society in the last years, you'll see that we're much closer to Huxley's Brave New World, where spying is not used to harm anybody, just to make stuff better.

[pauxlo]

It's a known fact that NSA has a secret backdoor in Windows that lets them watch almost anything you do. So when an office that spies on anybody can collect all information, why shouldn't a game collect a little bit of infomation?

Sorry, but no.

I have no idea what NSA can and will do with any windows computer (I don't have one), but this is no justification for us (= the BfW project) to collect "a little bit of" information we might or might not need.
Whatever one might think about the actions and capabilities of NSA (necessary, beneficial, condemn-worthy, ...), it is unrelated to what we are doing.

The important questions:
(a) Does the user know that you are collecting data about him (and which data, and for which goal), and (b) did he give you the permission to collect that data and use it for that goal?
If either of these has the response "No", then you should not collect this data.

You might say "it is not a big deal", but at the end its the user's data, not your ones to decide about.

There are privacy laws around the world (which differ from country to country about what is allowed), but there should also be some programmer ethics in play.

Neither NSA, neither the server of Battle for Wesnoth cares specifically about you, the stored information will exist, but no human will ever read it, so why should anybody care?

Can you guarantee that no human will ever read this? (No, you can't.)

And even if only some computer program is doing some analysis of the data, it is still the user's right to decide whether to give it away or not.

You upload info about your offline activity only when connecting to the add-ons' server anyway.

Yes, but this is usually not personal data, just statistic data.

I'll add that button to disable uploading the gameplay times, but it will be enabled by default.

Maybe we can show a confirmation popup in the moment that data is first collected or first uploaded, and store it as a preference then?

That PM looks somewhat Orwell-1984-panicked to me. If you look at the evolution of our society in the last years, you'll see that we're much closer to Huxley's Brave New World, where spying is not used to harm anybody, just to make stuff better.

Sorry, but if you see the Brave New World setting as something positive, you didn't understand it right.

[Dugi]

Sorry, but no.
I have no idea what NSA can and will do with any windows computer

This was one of the Snowden revelations and I think that Bill Gates actually told that it was true. So you're being spied on a much greater level, but your concern is something much less important. There isn't a good reason to care that a government agency checks if you aren't a terrorist, so why should there be a reason to care that the server notes that you played some add-ons, especially when all they see is the IP address.

Can you guarantee that no human will ever read this? (No, you can't.)

A human will see an IP address, not a real person. And if we take it from the bigger picture, a human can look at your PMs as well, can place your e-mail address on a public place, can use your account to discredit you on the forums and so on.

Yes, but this is usually not personal data, just statistic data.

So, knowing what you download and when you connect is statistics, but how much you played what you downloaded is personal data?

Maybe we can show a confirmation popup in the moment that data is first collected or first uploaded, and store it as a preference then?

You're free to add it.

Sorry, but if you see the Brave New World setting as something positive, you didn't understand it right.

You missed my point, but maybe I didn't write it correctly what I meant. I meant that fearing that our world will become an Orwellian dystopia isn't on the right place, because we're much closer to another dystopia (where spying isn't the method of controlling masses).

[doofus-01]

You missed my point, but maybe I didn't write it correctly what I meant. I meant that fearing that our world will become an Orwellian dystopia isn't on the right place, because we're much closer to another dystopia (where spying isn't the method of controlling masses).

Collected data can and will be used against you. Probably not data from the Wesnoth servers, but the contempt you seem to show for those concerned about this is unfortunate.

Wesnoth is not a Facebook app, and at least some of us would not get anywhere near it if it were.

[Dugi]

Oh forgotten thread lost to the ages, arise and return to the front pages...

I have returned to this problem after some time. I fixed conflicts with some refactoring done in the past, changed a few files to fit the standards of conformity I was told about and got it working with the latest 1.13 version (unfortunately, I highly doubt that this will be a part of 1.12).

I also added the privacy stuff, when you first connect to the add-ons server, it asks you if you want to upload information about what you played. If you choose no, nothing will be sent. If you change your mind, you can change it in the settings window of the add-on manager at any time.

I have also removed the decimals from rating, people didn't seem to like it (average score still shows a single decimal).